# The Hierarchy of Marvel and DC's Superheroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835 "2004-12-27T22:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/1 "2004-12-27T22:37:16Z")
Who would you consider to be the upper echelon of their respective universes based, not on their power levels, but on notoriety and significance? The elites, so to speak; the quintessentials; the Knights of the Round. I am thinking that the Marvel Universe’s inner circle, its clique, would consist of: Captain America; Doctor Doom; Doctor Strange; the Hulk; Iron Man; Magneto; Namor; Professor X; Silver Surfer; Spiderman; Thor; and the Fantastic Four as a unit. A core group of the X-Men (Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, Archangel, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Colossus) might also be included but that is probably my fanboyism speaking more than anything else. If more straightforward villains are included in addition to the ambiguous inclusions of Doom and Magneto in the main list, I’d also list Apocalypse; Doctor Octopus; Thanos; and, maybe, Mephisto and Loki. For DC, I don’t know. I’ve never been a fan and I only know its most obvious heroes and villains. My (uninformed) guess as to its membership would be: Aquaman; Batman; Captain Marvel; Catwoman; Flash; Green Lantern; Hawkman; Martian Manhunter; Nightwing; Plastic Man; Robin; Superboy; Superman; and Wonder Woman. For villains, I’d say: Darkseid; Joker; Lobo; and Lex Luthor. What do more informed fans think? How far off am I? Who would you remove or include? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/2 "2004-12-27T22:53:44Z")
> [@](#): > > For DC, I don’t know. I’ve never been a fan and I only know its most obvious heroes and villains. > > My (uninformed) guess as to its membership would be: Aquaman; Batman; Captain Marvel; Catwoman; Flash; Green Lantern; Hawkman; Martian Manhunter; Nightwing; Plastic Man; Robin; Superboy; Superman; and Wonder Woman. For villains, I’d say: Darkseid; Joker; Lobo; and Lex Luthor. Ah…no. Aquaman stinks like rotten fish. Catwoman is a villain. Hero Elite: [ul] [li]Superman[/li][li]Batman[/li][li]Wonder Woman[/li][li]Green Lantern[/li][li]Flash[/li][li]Martian Manhunter[/li][li]Golden Age Green Lantern[/li][li]Golden Age Flash[/li][li]Wildcat[/li][li]Starfire[/li][li]Captain Marvel[/li][li]Green Arrow (maybe)[/li][/ul] Villain Elite: [ul] [li]Joker[/li][li]Luthor[/li][li]Darkseid[/li][li]Doomsday[/li][li]The demon Trigon[/li][li]Rais A Ghul[/li][li]Per Degaton[/li][li]Vandal Savage[/li][li]Fernus[/li][li]Kobra (deceased)[/li][li]Brother Blood (Undead? Deceased? Damned? Cleveland?)[/li][li]Solomon Grundy (Special award for brainless violence & 50+ years of villainy)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/3 "2004-12-28T00:20:45Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Ah…no. > Catwoman is a villain. Not last time I checked. She’s been walking the more-or-less straight and narrow for quite a few years (real time, anyway). Also, Kobra may be dead, but there’s still that pesky terrorist organization/cult thingy he left behind that we have to contend with. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/4 "2004-12-28T00:41:06Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > If more straightforward villains are included in addition to the ambiguous inclusions of Doom and Magneto in the main list, I’d also list Apocalypse; Doctor Octopus; Thanos; and, maybe, Mephisto and Loki. Your hero picks are solid, but these aren’t so hot IMO. My list would go: Dr. Doom Magneto Doc Ock Red Skull Kingpin Green Goblin Galactus The Leader Maybe some of these could more accurately be called “opponents” or “adversaries,” but the overall gist is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/5 "2004-12-28T00:51:35Z")
Aquaman’s a big dog in DC. He’s soverign of 2/3rds of the planet, for crissakes. Since the Peter David days (except when he’s been dead) he’s been getting more and more combat effective and respectable. Captain Marvel is a heavy hitter, no doubt, but he’s not well-respected. Too much of a cornball. The Atom, Hawkman, Doctor Fate, and Captain Atom are all ahead of him in the street cred race. Everyone knows the Spectre. Everyone’s afraid of Him. I’m not sure where that puts him. As for baddies, add Gorilla Grodd. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/6 "2004-12-28T02:32:25Z")
Are you talking about notoriety _within_ their respective universes, or notoriety in the real world. If it’s in-universe, then maybe some golden age heroes like Alan Scott would make the list. I gather he’s highly respected in the superhero community. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/7 "2004-12-28T02:36:10Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Hero Elite: > [ul] > [li]Superman[/li][li]Batman[/li][li]Wonder Woman[/li][li]Green Lantern[/li][li]Flash[/li][li]Martian Manhunter[/li][li]Golden Age Green Lantern[/li][li]Golden Age Flash[/li][li]Wildcat[/li][li]Starfire[/li][li]Captain Marvel[/li][li]Green Arrow (maybe)[/li][/ul] I thought Plastic Man was the most powerful member of the Justice League? Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/8 "2004-12-28T02:41:41Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > I thought Plastic Man was the most powerful member of the Justice League? Am I wrong? I don’t read much JLA, but I’ve always thought Martian Manhunter was the most powerful. But I guess it’s somewhat debatable. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/9 "2004-12-28T03:11:37Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Your hero picks are solid, but these aren’t so hot IMO. My list would go: > > Dr. Doom > Magneto > Doc Ock > Red Skull > Kingpin > Green Goblin > Galactus > The Leader > > Maybe some of these could more accurately be called “opponents” or “adversaries,” but the overall gist is the same. I forgot all about the Red Skull and thought about putting the Kingpin on there but eventually decided against it and the reason I didn’t put Galactus is that I was trying to stay away from the cosmic beings or omnipotents, Thanos, Mephisto, and Silver Surfer being the exceptions. Why would you not have Apocalypse on there? I thought he was a natural fit. > [@tim314](#): > > Are you talking about notoriety _within_ their respective universes, or notoriety in the real world. If it’s in-universe, then maybe some golden age heroes like Alan Scott would make the list. I gather he’s highly respected in the superhero community. In-universe, mostly. A bit of real world too, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/10 "2004-12-28T03:30:15Z")
J’onn’s way more powerful than Plas. They can both change shape, but J’onn can change colour, making it more effective for disguise. Plas is pretty much indestructable, and may be effectively immortal. J’onn is, save in the presence of flame, pretty effectively indestructable, and he’s definitely immortal. Wheras J’onn has his vulnerability to flame, Plas is extremely susceptable to cold. Far more so than a normal person - in the JLA issue of that Joker crossover a few years back, the JLA tracked Dr Polaris to the South Pole and Plas got frozen solid. In the Tower of Babel arc, Ra’s’s men attacked him, froze him, and shattered him. Plas has an unexplained (AFAIK) resistance to mind control. J’onn, being a powerful telepath, and having the ability to reshape his brain - and thus its functioning - is resistant to most forms of mind control. J’onn’s superstrong, telepathic, has enhanced senses, can phase through solid objects, and has Martian Vision - very similar to Superman’s heat vision. Plas can’t match any of these. Now, speaking in-universe, Plas is definitely not a top-tier hero, respect-wise, or even power-wise. Even though he’s a member of a JLA version made up mostly of the top-tiers - Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, etc - he doesn’t get a whole lot of respect, either from the other heroes or from the public. Most view him as comic relief, who has occasionally useful powers, but is usually more annoying than helpful. Even Batman, who brought him into the League, doesn’t have a whole lot of respect for him. (Same holds for Huntress, who Bats brought into the League at about the same time - and then kicked out when she killed Prometheus.) Aquaman is definitely top-tier here. He has respectable powers, is a good friend of the other top-drawer heroes, and is ruler of a significant portion of the world - and not just the portion covered by water, either - there’s at least one surface nation that’s under Atlantean rule. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/11 "2004-12-28T04:05:31Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > I thought Plastic Man was the most powerful member of the Justice League? Am I wrong? You mean **Elastic** Man, right? Plastic Man was back in the '40s and '50s. And not DC. [http://www.toonopedia.com/plas.htm](http://www.toonopedia.com/plas.htm) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/12 "2004-12-28T04:11:22Z")
I’m suprised you only put Wolverine in a subset of potentials when clumped with other X-Men, seeing as how he has about seven books out at any given moment, seems to be linked to every team up that comes out these days, and is often refered to as “The deadliest mutant in the world.” but maybe that’s just the fanboy in me tlakin’… ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/13 "2004-12-28T04:21:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You mean **Elastic** Man, right? Plastic Man was back in the '40s and '50s. And not DC. [Don Markstein's Toonopedia: Plastic Man](http://www.toonopedia.com/plas.htm) Nope, Plastic Man is very much an active part of DC continuity these days (with his own comic), and a member of the JLA in good standing. He started at Quality Comics during the Golden Age, but DC bought the character in the '70s and integrated him into the DC Universe. Of course, you may be thinking of Elongated Man, the stretching detective superhero, who was DC’s answer to Plas before they had the rights to Plas. He served in the Bronze Age JLA and Justice League Europe and is still around, but these days Plastic Man usually overshadows him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/14 "2004-12-28T04:33:48Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > Nope, Plastic Man is very much an active part of DC continuity these days (with his own comic), and a member of the JLA in good standing. He started at Quality Comics during the **Golden Age,** but DC bought the character in the '70s and integrated him into the DC Universe. Of course, you may be thinking of Elongated Man, the stretching detective superhero, who was DC’s answer to Plas before they had the rights to Plas. He served in the **Bronze Age** JLA and Justice League Europe and is still around, but these days Plastic Man usually overshadows him. What do they call the **present** age of comix? ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/15 "2004-12-28T04:42:04Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > J’onn’s way more powerful than Plas. Someone hasn’t read the Burning Martian storyline. My absolute fave. Especially the ending. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/16 "2004-12-28T04:43:17Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > Of course, you may be thinking of Elongated Man, the stretching detective superhero, who was DC’s answer to Plas before they had the rights to Plas. Nope, they already had the rights to Plas. The creative people just didn’t realise it at the time. (Check the end of the Plasticman article BG linked for a cite.) ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/17 "2004-12-28T05:17:40Z")
I’m a little confused as to what exactly qualifies one to be in the inner circle. However, from what it sounds like, I’d have to say… Superman Batman Wonder Woman Green Lantern (Alan Scott) Flash (Jay Garrick) Martian Manhunter Aquaman (he’s no joke; when the JLA went on their first adventure in the antimatter universe, Batman left just Aquaman and J’onn to take care of things while they were gone) Hawkman Nightwing Maybe on The Atom, Wally West, Green Arrow, Hal Jordan when he comes back, and Kyle Rayner if he doesn’t die. I think Mr. Terrific could get up there if he keeps going the way he has been. Most of the members of the Satellite JLA and the current and past JSA lineups would easily qualify for a 2nd tier of inner circle-ness. I disagree on Plastic Man and Captain Marvel. Both of them are quite powerful, but no one takes Plas seriously except Batman (and with good reason; he doens’t want to be taken seriously) and the Marvels pretty much have the same problem. Marvel? Captain America Iron Man Thor Dr. Strange Professor X Phoenix Reed Richards Hank Pym Maybe Silver Surfer, Wasp, Cyclops, Sue Storm, Hawkeye, and the Thing. I disagree on Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine (assuming we’re talking about in-universe noteriety). Spider-Man gets a lot of respect for what he does, but his area of expertise is more with street-level stuff, and he’s a loner. When the big stuff goes down, Spidey usually shows up of his own accord and tags along with the Avengers or something. Plus, he’s routinely slandered by the major newspaper of the area he protects. Within the Marvel U, I doubt he’s pulling down the same level of respect as even some of the 2nd-tier Avengers. I wouldn’t include Daredevil for similar reasons. Even when he hasn’t been a mindless monster, the Hulk is too much of a loner and not someone that others respect so much as fear and don’t really want to be around. The same goes for Wolverine, and he doesn’t even have the power thing going for him. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/18 "2004-12-28T05:48:58Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I forgot all about the Red Skull and thought about putting the Kingpin on there but eventually decided against it and the reason I didn’t put Galactus is that I was trying to stay away from the cosmic beings or omnipotents, Thanos, Mephisto, and Silver Surfer being the exceptions. I interpreted your OP in more of a real-world light, picking the baddies that a) have seeped to a degree into the public consciousness and b) seem to encapsulate something of the pizzazz that made 60s-era Marvel so great. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/19 "2004-12-28T12:23:00Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Aquaman’s a big dog in DC. He’s soverign of 2/3rds of the planet, for crissakes. Since the Peter David days (except when he’s been dead) he’s been getting more and more combat effective and respectable. Aquaman talks to fishies. We shall speak no more of the Fishie-Talking-Man. 😛 > [@](#): > > As for baddies, add Gorilla Grodd. I was remiss in omitting him. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835/20 "2004-12-28T13:25:18Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > They can both change shape, but J’onn can change colour, making it more effective for disguise. Plastic Man is capable of changing his color, it’s just very, very difficult for him to do. This was revealed in the JLA arc dealing with Plas’s son - Batman pointed out that the kid, who has shapechanging powers, could already change his color when Plas couldn’t - and Plas, at the end of the issue, turned his nose blue for Bats to make a point. > [@](#): > > Plas has an unexplained (AFAIK) resistance to mind control. J’onn, being a powerful telepath, and having the ability to reshape his brain - and thus its functioning - is resistant to most forms of mind control. According to the dialogue in the JLA arc where this is revealed, Batman deduced that Plastic Man would be able to throw off J’onn’s mind control because “his mind was no longer organic” - I suppose Batman figured that having one’s mind survive the complete discorporation of one’s body (as Plas’s did) meant it was no longer a thing bound to the flesh. > [@](#): > > (Same holds for Huntress, who Bats brought into the League at about the same time - and then kicked out when she killed Prometheus.) **Attempted** to kill, wasn’t it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hierarchy-of-marvel-and-dcs-superheroes/281835.md?page=2)