# The Higgs boson does not exist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613 "2011-08-30T12:16:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![inkling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkling)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/21 "2011-08-30T16:35:30Z")
This in only my tiny, incomplete understanding, but: They’ve taken apart everything they can, and weighed all the pieces, but so far they have not found any particle that actually weighs enough to account for, well, how much everything weighs. In theorizing about what such a thing might look like, and where it might be found, the Higgs Boson seemed like it would fill all the known gaps nicely. So they looked for this particle, but to date have not found it where they expected to, and therefore can’t explain fairly large portions of the tiny, tiny word that is subatomic physics. In other words, “There’s a hole _here_, but when we look there, we can’t find anything.” ---
**Author:** ![inkling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkling)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/22 "2011-08-30T16:42:16Z")
Double post, but… If you have ever seen the famous drawing of a very completely disassembled Volkswagen Beetle, imagine that the Beetle there depicted is an atom. It would be like weighing the Beetle, then completely disassembling it to the state in that drawing, weighing each piece, and finding that they don’t add up (by a large margin) to the weight of the car; then, you put it all together again and find its weight has magically reappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/23 "2011-08-30T16:51:54Z")
Good thread on the Higgs –\> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs) ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/24 "2011-08-30T17:29:30Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I should apply there! I have spent literally _years_ in intensive study that sound like they’d be applicable. What, you like tractors? No, wait, that’s Mahindra & Mahindra. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/25 "2011-08-30T18:02:23Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai, India > > I should apply there! I have spent literally _years_ in intensive study that sound like they’d be applicable. Your experience counts only if the tata’s in question emitted a minimum of 145 electron volts. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/26 "2011-08-30T18:36:20Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Your experience counts only if the tata’s in question emitted a minimum of 145 electron volts. That’s the Higgs bosom, right? ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/27 "2011-08-30T18:52:36Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Your experience counts only if the tata’s in question emitted a minimum of 145 electron volts. _Looks down at self_ Would 70 watts each count? ---
**Author:** ![Maiira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Maiira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maiira)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/28 "2011-08-30T21:03:20Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Good thread on the Higgs –\> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs) Thank you for this, it’s really helping. (The other answers have helped too, thank you!) Also, wow, I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me that the word “boson” would be pronounced “BOH-sahn” (following the formula of proton, neutron, and electron). I’ve been pronouncing it “BOSS-un.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/29 "2011-08-30T21:14:08Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Good thread on the Higgs –\> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606162&highlight=higgs) Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/30 "2011-08-30T21:36:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wouldn’t finding out that the HB doesn’t exist be as important a discovery as finding out it does? I think so, because which scenario is more exciting: 1. A particle that might exist if our understanding of physics, and the math we use to predict its existence is finally corroborated by actual evidence for the very first time in history. Meaning the model we’ve created explaining the fundamental properties of matter are correct to that point, and we can move on with confidence knowing this particle is, indeed _real._ or 1. After we’ve looked under every couch cushion, and flipped over every mattress, over and over again, we come to realize (or accept), it’s just not there. Now what? How far back to the drawing board do we have to go when it comes to our understanding of matter? It might mean the universe has even _bigger_ surprises in store for us. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/31 "2011-08-30T21:58:27Z")
Of course you can’t prove the Higgs-Boson exists, you just have to have faith it does! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/32 "2011-08-30T22:23:13Z")
> [@inkling](#): > > Double post, but… If you have ever seen the famous drawing of a very completely disassembled Volkswagen Beetle, imagine that the Beetle there depicted is an atom. It would be like weighing the Beetle, then completely disassembling it to the state in that drawing, weighing each piece, and finding that they don’t add up (by a large margin) to the weight of the car; then, you put it all together again and find its weight has magically reappeared. Aha! The weight difference would be with the filled up fuel tank and other fluids. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/33 "2011-08-30T22:31:13Z")
> [@Maiira](#): > > Thank you for this, it’s really helping. (The other answers have helped too, thank you!) (I did look for a reference in the linked thread but couldn’t see one so…) If you prefer your explanation in song: Large Hadron Rap. 🙂 (Hope that’s the right Youtube link… site is blocked here, but it looks right). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/34 "2011-08-30T22:58:59Z")
[booster] Fermilab, f\*\*\* yeah! West-Suburban Chicago! West-Suburban Chicago! [/booster] ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/35 "2011-08-30T23:53:40Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > _Looks down at self_ > > Would 70 watts each count? For me, personally, they would. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![QuarkChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c5a1d2/32.png) [@QuarkChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuarkChild)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/36 "2011-08-31T17:39:07Z")
I don’t think any physicists are surprised that the Higgs particle hasn’t been found in the mass range described in the OP’s article. Existing data suggests that the mass of the Higgs particle is not much higher than 114 GeV (actually, the best fit value is even lower than that, but 114 GeV is the lowest it could be without having been discovered by older accelerators). So if the Standard Model is correct, you’d expect a Higgs particle of maybe 120 GeV or so, not too much higher. Maybe at the end of this year, or next year, the research groups at the LHC will announce they’ve gotten a 120 GeV discovery. Stay tuned. (GeV, or billion electron-volts, is used by high energy theorists as a mass unit, 1 GeV is roughly the amount of mass in a proton.) It should also be noted that these new exclusion limits ASSUME that the Standard Model is correct. If a Higgs-like particle exists (or more than one exist), but it isn’t the one required by the Standard Model, then it could have a mass of 150 GeV or whatever and not be detected in this most recent data run. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/37 "2011-08-31T17:55:05Z")
It’s not accurate to say that the Higgs is the cause of mass. It’s more accurate to say that the Higgs boson is an emergent property of the phenomenon which causes some particles to have the amount of mass they do. In fact, most of the mass we’re familiar with doesn’t relate to the Higgs mechanism at all, but rather comes from the binding energy associated with the Strong Nuclear Force. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/38 "2011-08-31T19:23:18Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > That’s the Higgs bosom, right? Win ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/39 "2011-08-31T23:09:39Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > It means we may not be a Type-13 planet after all. Whew! But are we in the Final Stages anyway? At least we don’t need to worry about being compressed into an ultradense particle the size of a pea… ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613/40 "2011-09-02T02:56:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Of course you can’t prove the Higgs-Boson exists, you just have to have faith it does! I went to a play once where the Higgs-Boson died, but we believed in it really hard and it came back to life. Hurray! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-higgs-boson-does-not-exist/594613.md?page=3)