# The History of Israel Informed By the Exodus Narative **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936 "2016-01-12T16:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/81 "2016-01-14T20:23:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Jayhawker Soule: > > Huh? The numbers I was using are straight out of the Bible. Actually, they are straight out of your translation of the Torah. But let me ask you a question: What would you guess Hur’s age was at the time of the Exodus? (PS: I’ll be offline for a bit - spending the afternoon and evening with a granddaughter.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/82 "2016-01-14T20:28:44Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Actually, they are straight out of your translation of the Torah. Have you got different numbers to present to us? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/83 "2016-01-14T20:29:58Z")
Jayhawker Soule: > [@](#): > > Actually, they are straight out of your translation of the Torah. Is the translation of the numbers in Numbers considered open to question? > [@](#): > > But let me ask you a question: What would you guess Hur’s age was at the time of the Exodus? Couldn’t say precisely, but he was a grandfather of someone old enough to be a master craftsman. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/84 "2016-01-14T21:33:11Z")
**Jayhawker Soule** , I’m not a mod and you’re not breaking any rules, but you are new to the site and I feel like you’re approaching Greate Debates a bit funny. I sense that you have topics that you want to discuss, but when the discussion doesn’t go as you envision, you just get frustrated by it and take to taking pot shots at what others are saying, regardless of whether your pot shot actually even makes any sense. (E.g., complaining that my summarization of my own words, written to Merneith, was “distorting your words”, or now finding fault with **cmkeller** ’s version of the Torah as though he went out and found the one which was translated by Nefarious Cultists.) GD isn’t going to go nice on you. If you don’t have your own argument to make and if you aren’t willing or able to find data to back your argument, there’s not really any value in hanging out just to complain that the thread isn’t going your way or that everyone else’s cites are stupid. Yeah, some cites are stupid and that’s worth pointing out on the occasion. But the reason to hang out in GD is to debate. So far, you aren’t debating. And my point is, you should try. You seem fairly knowledgeable and there’s a lot of information available on the web. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/85 "2016-01-14T22:55:47Z")
Sage Rat: > [@](#): > > If I was a God and I’d shown miracles, lead the people to greatness in innumerable wars, and directly talked to a number of the most important people, I’d think that backslipping would be well over with after a few weeks, let alone a few centuries. You’d think so, but then again, the Bible itself tells the story of the Golden Calf, less than two months after the Israelites had all heard the voice of G-d. For reasons we, as 21st-century people, can’t really relate to, the appeal of idolatry was apparently very, very strong in the ancient world. Biblical Israel had its sinners as well as its saints, and temptation to sin (in various ways) is consistently an aspect of the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/86 "2016-01-15T02:13:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > **Jayhawker Soule** , I’m not a mod and you’re not breaking any rules, but you are new to the site and I feel like you’re approaching Greate Debates a bit funny.[ That is not my impression but, as you, I am new here. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I sense that you have topics that you want to discuss, but when the discussion doesn’t go as you envision, you just get frustrated by it and take to taking pot shots at what others are saying, regardless of whether your pot shot actually even makes any sense. I think you see what you want to see. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > (E.g., complaining that my summarization of my own words, written to Merneith, was “distorting your words”, … Here you are correct. I misinterpreted your post. My apologies. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > …, or now finding fault with **cmkeller** ’s version of the Torah as though he went out and found the one which was translated by Nefarious Cultists. I find fault with the translations because more than a few scholars find fault with the translation. But, for the record, I do not believe that 600,000 military-capable men (plus older men, women, and children marched under the banner of YHWH through the Sea of Reeds. What I do believe is that there was a Southern incursion into the Highlands that was formative, one evidenced by a number of things: the distribution of Biblical names, the Yahweh-centric theology, the use of circumcision as a cultural marker, settlement patterns, the shift in burial methods, etc. Friedman recognizes this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/87 "2016-01-15T02:38:01Z")
I think Sage Rat said that with the best of intentions, Jayhawker, and I think you should take it to heart. As an old timer here, I’ve seen a number of new posters burn out because they come in too hot. I would add that you can’t be too controlling of drifting of the focus of a thread. Don’t invite people to start a new thread every time the subject drifts a little. You seem an intelligent and knowledgeable guy. Just have fun. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/88 "2016-01-15T02:58:36Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Jayhawker Soule: > > Is the translation of the numbers in Numbers considered open to question? It has been argued by George Mendenhall and others that אֶלֶף ('elef) - typically and correctly translated as ‘thousand’ - originally meant something akin to clan, squad, or contingent. So, for example, the Jewish Study Bible renders Numbers 1:16 as: “Those are the elected of the assembly, the chieftains of their ancestral tribes: they are the heads of the **contingents** of Israel.” and I Sam 10:19 as: “… Now station yourself before the Lord, by your tribes and **clans**.” Or, perhaps, we are simply dealing with a case of gross exaggeration. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/89 "2016-01-15T03:58:20Z")
Jayhawker Soule: > [@](#): > > I find fault with the translations because more than a few scholars find fault with the translation. What are some of the alternate translations offered for the numbers I’m referring to? Really, that’s a totally new one on me, that there’s any dispute over the translation of Hebrew numbers. > [@](#): > > But, for the record, I do not believe that 600,000 military-capable men (plus older men, women, and children marched under the banner of YHWH through the Sea of Reeds. > > What I do believe is that there was a Southern incursion into the Highlands that was formative, one evidenced by a number of things: the distribution of Biblical names, the Yahweh-centric theology, the use of circumcision as a cultural marker, settlement patterns, the shift in burial methods, etc. Friedman recognizes this. Which is all fine and good to believe. The article you linked to in the OP specifically posits a theory that the Levites alone has a Bible-like Exodus experience and then hooked up with the rest of the tribes later, and, knowing only what’s revealed in the linked article, I don’t see much merit in this proposal. If the point is to make the Exodus seem more believable by down-scaling the degree of what there’s no physical evidence for (Levites alone rather than 600,000 warriors + families), that’s still something there’s no physical evidence for, so why is that so much better? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/90 "2016-01-15T15:11:18Z")
Jayhawker Soule: > [@](#): > > It has been argued by George Mendenhall and others that אֶלֶף ('elef) - typically and correctly translated as ‘thousand’ - originally meant something akin to clan, squad, or contingent. Even if I were to accept that “elef” has this meaning in some contexts (although I know nothing of Mr. Mendenhall’s work nor what prompts him to revise the translation in the verses you mentioned), there’s no way that it means anything other than “thousand” in the censuses in the first four chapters of Numbers. Each of the four censuses listed contain both individual tribe/clan numbers and then total numbers, and the spare hundreds add up to the proper amount of thousands that you’d expect in decimal mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/91 "2016-01-15T16:22:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think Sage Rat said that with the best of intentions, Jayhawker, and I think you should take it to heart. As an old timer here, I’ve seen a number of new posters burn out because they come in too hot. I would add that you can’t be too controlling of drifting of the focus of a thread. Don’t invite people to start a new thread every time the subject drifts a little. > > You seem an intelligent and knowledgeable guy. Just have fun. 🙂 Thanks for the feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/92 "2016-01-15T17:29:20Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Jayhawker Soule: > > Even if I were to accept that “elef” has this meaning in some contexts (although I know nothing of Mr. Mendenhall’s work nor what prompts him to revise the translation in the verses you mentioned), there’s no way that it means anything other than “thousand” in the censuses in the first four chapters of Numbers. Each of the four censuses listed contain both individual tribe/clan numbers and then total numbers, and the spare hundreds add up to the proper amount of thousands that you’d expect in decimal mathematics. I agree, and there is no doubt but that 'elef commonly means “thousand.” The problem is that Biblical Hebrew is both terse and difficult, and words can have different meanings depending context and period. Although this is a bit off-topic - my fault entirely - let me quote a rather long piece from the [**Plaut Commentary**](http://www.amazon.com/The-Torah-Commentary-Revised-Edition/dp/0807408832): > [@](#): > > The most obvious problem is presented by the figure of some 600,000 arms-bearing men, which would suggest that about two million Israelites wandered in the desert. The logistics of so large a migration exceeds the bounds of likelihood and has led some traditional interpreters to posit that the Israelites spread not only through Sinai but through the whole Arabian peninsula. Others point out that the Negev could sustain a much larger population in earlier days than in later times and that we should not judge conditions from the present aridity of the southland. But the intimacy portrayed in many of the accounts of the wanderings and in the leaders’ relationships with the people does not seem to allow for millions of Israelites in the desert. Still, we must take into account the persistence with which biblical tradition presents the figure of 600,000 and the (as Martin Noth has pointed out) the statistics appear “uncontrived.” > > The key to the puzzle may well lie in the Hebrew word _elef_ (אֶלֶף) which here and elsewhere is translated as “thousands,” the meaning it has in contemporary usage.But it is possible that in earlier days _elef_ did not have such a precise numerical value. Just as _revavot_ (רְבָבוֹת) is often taken to convey “tens of thousands,” so _elef_ may originally have been an indefinite term, probably some social tribal unit, representing a value far below a thousand. In fact, in Num. 1:16 our translation renders the word not as “thousands” but as “contingents.” > > In time this meaning of _elef_ was lost or re-interpreted and “one thousand” was the only sense understood. For, in the days of the monarchy, when the old tribal-federal structure had given way to a more centralized military establishment, the army had units of one thousand men with an officer appointer by the crown. By this time, the old figures and terms were comprehended in the light of current experience which would explain the large figures in the transmitted text. > > This the tribe of Reuben is said to have enrolled “46 _elef_ 500” fighting men and usually this is understood to mean 46,500 persons. But, by reading _elef_ as “contingent,” we would translate verse 21 as: “Those enrolled from the tribe of Reuben: 46 contingents [=] 500.” Applying this method to the others tribes, we would reach each figure this way: the “thousands” represent contingents, the hundreds the actual muster of fighting men. Therefore, Judah would have had 600 men in arms, Zebulun 400. Gad and Asher would have contributed the most, 650 each. Altogether the Israelite fighting force would have amounted to 5,500 men. Fighting forces of such size compare well with other ancient armies, as attested in Mari and elsewhere. (See Hallo’s essay.) > > This theory, while it does not solve all other difficulties, would suggest a total of about 20,000 Israelites in the desert. The interpretation also gives due credit to the care with which traditions were transmitted. We may no longer fully understand their meaning (nor, in this case, was this meaning fully understood when the bible was committed to writing), but we do well to take the tradition itself seriously. And, yes, it remains a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/93 "2016-01-15T19:29:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > You’d think so, but then again, the Bible itself tells the story of the Golden Calf, less than two months after the Israelites had all heard the voice of G-d. For reasons we, as 21st-century people, can’t really relate to, the appeal of idolatry was apparently very, very strong in the ancient world. Biblical Israel had its sinners as well as its saints, and temptation to sin (in various ways) is consistently an aspect of the human condition. Presuming that the account in the Bible is true, then that would be a reasonable position to hold. However, I think it’s fairly clear that we cannot trust the veracity of the story. It’s fairly clear that all or the majority of the details were made up. 1. The Egyptians make no report of any such occurence. 2. Even if we presume that the Egyptians wouldn’t report a great loss like that, one would expect that after having viewed such a miracle, a number of Egyptians would have sought to join the Jews. Neither the Bible nor any Egyptian text points to an exodus of Egyptians. 3. There’s no evidence of the people crossing the Sinai. 4. Even if we presume that the wandering slaves wouldn’t have left any evidence of their journey, we have to note that the Exodus is not the only story in the before the kingdoms started to form and both Moses and the Jews have a legacy after the Exodus. The conquest of Canaan, for example, we would expect to see in the archaeological record. Nor do we see the conquest of the Midianites, that Moses supposedly oversaw. 5. The place names and peoples referenced in the Bible, don’t match the historical record. There are many anachronistic references like Chaldea and Gerar. Many of the places conquered during the Conquest of Canaan, for example, simply didn’t exist at the time. And all of these anachronistic names would only make sense to a 600-500 BC writer, who had no actual document record to base his account on. 6. And despite the works clearly being written in the 600-500 BC period, we have examples like High Priest Hilkiah claiming to have “found” the lost ancient works. So, pretty clearly, the priesthood and monarchy weren’t above passing off the works as genuine, even though we know they aren’t. That rather discredits any pretense of an honest approach to the collection and writing of the original text. Basically, we can be pretty certain that everything before the foundation of the kingdoms is fiction. It might be fiction based on legend, which itself may be based on history, but it’s reasonable to assume that 99% of it is made up. Not just small details, but even the big details are probably untrue. Further, as to the explicit claim that ancient people are just so immensely drawn to idolatry, as has been pointed out, Asherah appears to be tossed out the window pretty rapidly in 600 BC. The archaeological evidence would seem to be that once they decided to go monotheistic, it was a fairly quick process. And we must ask ourselves, knowing that the Exodus was principally or completely fiction, why the work needs to contain references to The Golden Calf and other examples of people practicing idolatry and then being struck down by god for it? Given everything else we know, it seems far more reasonable to assume that this was included to scare people out of polytheism, rather than because it was historic truth. Which, as pointed out, seems to have been successful. The people quickly dropped idolatry from their menu. It also helps them to explain the historic record that they had of the kings, in which some did practice polytheism. It’s rather hard to deny the presence of a shrine to Ba’al in the middle of town, with a big inscription on top of it, saying “Built by King Manasseh.” You have to explain that away somehow. Which is why you see the big Jewish figures before the kings seeming to be perfectly accepting of and enthralled entirely by the one God. But once you get into the time where the writers actually had a historic record to deal with, the leaders of the Jews start to become a little more iffy about monotheism. And so you see the writers including occassional mention of polytheism, through centuries of history, and each time point out how it made God angry and of course punished those rulers or those Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/94 "2016-01-15T19:40:04Z")
ADDENDUM TO PREVIOUS I also feel it’s worth mentioning the case of South America back in the Age of Exploration, where we see a group of people with an ingrained religion, coming into contact with a group of people that use miraculous means to dominate them and claim the power of a particularly mighty god behind them. There has been no meaningful struggle among the people of South America with coming to grips with Christianity. On the whole, they seemed to have flipped over to it in a pretty brisk scheduled and never looked back. Were the account in the Bible truthful, I see no reason to not expect a similar result. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/95 "2016-01-16T02:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The key to the puzzle may well lie in the Hebrew word elef (אֶלֶף) which here and elsewhere is translated as “thousands,” the meaning it has in contemporary usage.But it is possible that in earlier days elef did not have such a precise numerical value. Just as revavot (רְבָבוֹת) is often taken to convey “tens of thousands,” so elef may originally have been an indefinite term, probably some social tribal unit, representing a value far below a thousand. In fact, in Num. 1:16 our translation renders the word not as “thousands” but as “contingents.” > > In time this meaning of elef was lost or re-interpreted and “one thousand” was the only sense understood. For, in the days of the monarchy, when the old tribal-federal structure had given way to a more centralized military establishment, the army had units of one thousand men with an officer appointer by the crown. By this time, the old figures and terms were comprehended in the light of current experience which would explain the large figures in the transmitted text. Without getting involved in the general discussion, I would be curious to see any place in any language where a generic term for “many” morphed into a specific quantity. I doubt that it ever happens. We have many examples of numbers being employed as general terms for “lots of”–we use “hundreds,” “thousands,”" millions," etc. in that way all the time–and we can find similar usages in other languages. We even go after other languages to steal their numeric words, (_e.g._, myriad). Until such time as _gajillion_ gets applied to a specific number of trailing zeroes, I find the hypothesis proposed in the quoted text to be unlikely in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/96 "2016-01-16T03:44:12Z")
**tomndebb** : isn’t it a consensus among scholars that “forty” is a Biblical/Hebrew shortcut for “many?” I’ve heard that said in a number (forty!) of places. The forty years in the wilderness, the forty days of the flood, Jesus’ forty days, etc.; they aren’t “40” exactly, but “a buncha.” ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/97 "2016-01-16T04:01:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Without getting involved in the general discussion, I would be curious to see any place in any language where a generic term for “many” morphed into a specific quantity. I doubt that it ever happens. We have many examples of numbers being employed as general terms for “lots of”–we use “hundreds,” “thousands,”" millions," etc. in that way all the time–and we can find similar usages in other languages. We even go after other languages to steal their numeric words, (_e.g._, myriad). Until such time as _gajillion_ gets applied to a specific number of trailing zeroes, I find the hypothesis proposed in the quoted text to be unlikely in the extreme. OK. I guess on at least some level your findings are roughly as good as your credentials. To what extent have you studied Semitic languages? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/98 "2016-01-16T04:36:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > **tomndebb** : isn’t it a consensus among scholars that “forty” is a Biblical/Hebrew shortcut for “many?” I’ve heard that said in a number (forty!) of places. The forty years in the wilderness, the forty days of the flood, Jesus’ forty days, etc.; they aren’t “40” exactly, but “a buncha.” That, however, is moving in the opposite direction of the hypothesis proposed by the author in the Plaut Commentary. “Forty” standing for"many" is akin to “hundreds” or “thousands” standing for “many.” I have never heard anyone suggest that there was a (Hebrew equivalent) word “forty” with no numeric value that picked up the meaning of four tens. (There may be other (numerological) reasons for the initial use of forty. The four corners of the Earth expanded by the standard of base 10, for example. Then, once forty was used for a big event, it became the catch word for any other period in which the author wanted to invoke a symbolic relationship: Forty days of rain (punishment for sin) becomes forty years in desert (as punishment for sin–see _Numbers 32_) becomes forty days in desert fasting to oppose sin. There are lots of hypotheses, but the Plaut guess that a generic word would acquire a specific numeric value runs counter to any example that I have ever encountered.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/99 "2016-01-16T04:43:44Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > OK. > > I guess on at least some level your findings are roughly as good as your credentials. To what extent have you studied Semitic languages? My credentials are irrelevant to this point. You are welcome to follow Plaut, but it makes little sense. Does Plaut provide any evidence of _elef_ being used as a generic word for “many” that explicitly precedes its use as a number? Does Plaut provide a citation to any word (other than _elef_) moving in meaning from a generalized “many” to an explicit number? That assertion should be backed by evidence and, lacking such evidence, the assertion is a weak one that appears to be an _ad hoc_ invention to support an unsustainable claim. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936/100 "2016-01-16T04:59:25Z")
Do we have any actual physical archaeological evidence that such a journey occurred? At tent pole, some pottery, a bridal or a saddle… anything to show that 100,000/1 million/whatever HUGE amount of people spent — 40 years — moving through the desert? I mean… we do have archaeological evidence of other tribal/nomadic peoples lived in deserts, right? Coming from much much smaller groups… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-history-of-israel-informed-by-the-exodus-narative/742936.md?page=6)