The History of Israel Informed By the Exodus Narative

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@tomndebb

My credentials are irrelevant to this point. You are welcome to follow Plaut, but it makes little sense. Does Plaut provide any evidence of elef being used as a generic word for “many” that explicitly precedes its use as a number?

Plaut (and others) rely on Mendenhall as found in …

The Census Lists of Numbers 1 and 26; Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 77, No. 1 (Mar, 1958), pp 52-66

Mendenhall’s discussion of 'elef begins on the last paragraph of page 60. Unfortunately, the easiest way to access this document is by creating a “MyJSTOR” logon at http://www.jstor.org/. There is no charge in creating such an account but it does take a bit of effort.

@tomndebb

Does Plaut provide a citation to any word (other than elef) moving in meaning from a generalized “many” to an explicit number?

Not that I know of.

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

What I do believe is that there was a Southern incursion into the Highlands that was formative, one evidenced by a number of things: the distribution of Biblical names, the Yahweh-centric theology, the use of circumcision as a cultural marker, settlement patterns, the shift in burial methods, etc. Friedman recognizes this.

But

No tent poles. No sandals, pottery, saddles, pieces of saddles… nothing… not one - single - archaeological remnant to prove that 1 million people spent 40 years in the desert.

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

But

No tent poles. No sandals, pottery, saddles, pieces of saddles… nothing… not one - single - archaeological remnant to prove that 1 million people spent 40 years in the desert.

I’ve never suggested that “1 million people spent 40 years in the desert”, nor do I believe it.

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

I’ve never suggested that “1 million people spent 40 years in the desert”, nor do I believe it.

Well, thats what the book of Exodus says.

Are you now willing to say the claims made in Exodus are false?

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

I’ve never suggested that “1 million people spent 40 years in the desert”, nor do I believe it.

Exodus 12:37-38

37 Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. 38 A mixed multitude also went up with them, [a]along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.

Deuteronomy 1

Moses Speaks to the People 40 Years after Leaving Egypt

1 This is the speech Moses gave in the desert east of the Jordan River, on the plains, near Suph, between Paran and Tophel, and near Laban, Hazeroth, and Di Zahab. He spoke to all the Israelites. 2 (It takes 11 days to go from Mount Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by way of Mount Seir.)

3 On the first day of the eleventh month in the fortieth year after they had left Egypt, Moses told the Israelites everything the Lord had commanded him to tell them. 4 This was after he had defeated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon, and King Og of Bashan, who ruled in Ashtaroth and[a] in Edrei. 5 The Israelites were east of the Jordan River in Moab when Moses began to review God’s teachings.

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

Well, thats what the book of Exodus says.

OK

@Robert163

Are you now willing to say the claims made in Exodus are false?

Let me first strip the question of what could be seen as an irresponsible insinuation and make it less sweeping.

<paraphrase> [INDENT]Are you willing to say that many of the claims made in Exodus are false? </paraphrase>

Of course.

[/INDENT]

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

OK
Let me first strip the question of what could be seen as an irresponsible insinuation and make it less sweeping.

<paraphrase> [INDENT]Are you willing to say that many of the claims made in Exodus are false? </paraphrase>

Of course.

[/INDENT]

so:

1- we have no archaeological evidence to support the trip through the desert
2- the source of your claim, the book of exodus, you freely admit, contains many false claims
3- nonetheless, you assert that the trip through the desert, Exodus, took place

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

so:

1- we have no archaeological evidence to support the trip through the desert
2- the source of your claim, the book of exodus, you freely admit, contains many false claims
3- nonetheless, you assert that the trip through the desert, Exodus, took place

Gee whiz … I guess you win. Good job.

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

Gee whiz … I guess you win. Good job.

Yeah well I guess I do. Why are you being sarcastic? You are the one who’s made claims that have no archaeological evidence from a source that you - admit - has many false claims.

Perhaps you can see why I am puzzled at your sarcasm?

[CarnalK]

@Robert163

Perhaps you can see why I am puzzled at your sarcasm?

Well, he did say in post #8 that he didn’t believe in the Exodus as told in the bible and since then he’s clearly just trying to suss out what might be the roots of the myth. So he’s probably puzzled/annoyed that you are trying to corner him on questions he already answered.

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

Perhaps you can see why I am puzzled at your sarcasm?

As you wish.

[Jayhawker_Soule]

Just a parenthetical regarding …

@Robert163

No tent poles. No sandals, pottery, saddles, pieces of saddles… nothing… not one - single - archaeological remnant to prove that 1 million people spent 40 years in the desert.

See …

Numerous scholars have grappled with the problem of the visibility of nomadic communities in the archaeological record. Perhaps V. Gordon Childe said it best: “The failure to recognize prehistoric settlement sites as belonging to pure pastoralists is not any proof that such did not exist.” In the deserts of the southern Levant, the visibility of pastoral nomads in the archaeological record has been a point of debate out of which two schools of thought have emerged. On the one hand there are the scholars represented primarily by S. Rosen who believe that the absence of material remains is indicative of no occupation by pastoral-based peoples. An alternative perspective is represented by Finkelstein, who suggests that there “is no possibility of periods of human ‘void’ . . .” in these desert areas. As Finkelstein and Perevolotsky point out, during the nineteenth century there were thousands of Bedouin pastoralists living in the Negev and Sinai, and yet, at the end of the twentieth century, it is difficult to recognize their remains. This problem is highlighted even more by the long history of Bedouin occupation in the Negev, where oral histories document over twelve major tribal wars in the region from the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries. Virtually none of the rich history of these pastoral nomads is preserved in the material record of the Negev today. While there is logic in Rosen’s position, that without hard archaeological facts it must be assumed there was an absence of nomadic occupation in a region, here we are inclined to take a more measured position between Rosen and Finkelstein. Why could not there be a period when nomadic communities ceased to exist in a region? It is always dangerous to state emphatically that “there is no possibility” for something to have occurred in the past. Migration, genocide, plagues, and other catastrophes can always decimate a human population. With new research designs and new exploratory methods, new discoveries can always be made that shed light on archaeological problems such as ancient pastoral nomadic communities.

Identifying nomadic communities is notoriously difficult, as highlighted by the debate between I. Finkelstein and S. Rosen, which focuses on the archaeology of western Palestine. A. J. Frendo has provided a very useful summary of some of the reasons it is so difficult to identify nomads in the Near Eastern archaeological record. These include: (1) nomadic remains may be covered by sediment deposition; (2) fences used to construct corrals may have been made of shrubs and other forms of vegetation (rather than stones) that do not survive the ravages of time; (3) natural erosion processes may remove evidence of ephemeral tent camps; (4) cultural formation processes by human activities may remove evidence of nomadic sites; and (5) some archaeologists may not be familiar with the material correlates of nomadic societies and may fail to identify them in the field.

As will be shown here, until recently, no scholar had suggested that there was archaeological evidence for the existence of the Shasu nomads known from historical sources to have occupied ancient Edom. Now, after careful field surveys and systematic excavations in one part of Edom—the Jabal Hamrat Fidan—it is possible to begin an “archaeology of nomads” and build a case for identifying the Shasu in Edom. This identification is rapidly gaining acceptance by researchers studying the Iron Age in southern Jordan.

Archaeology and the Shasu Nomads: Recent Excavations in the Jabal Hamrat Fidan, Jordan

Of particular interest here is the reference to Finkelstein.

[Robert163]

@CarnalK

Well, he did say in post #8 that he didn’t believe in the Exodus as told in the bible and since then he’s clearly just trying to suss out what might be the roots of the myth. So he’s probably puzzled/annoyed that you are trying to corner him on questions he already answered.

There is no archaeological evidence and he admits Exodus makes many of false claims. What, precisely, is there to “root” out?

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

Just a parenthetical regarding …

See …

Of particular interest here is the reference to Finkelstein.

I really don’t care what Finkelstein thinks. There are no archaeological remains.

[TonySinclair]

@cmkeller

Not really. The article starts with him dismissing the “there was no Exodus” crowd as basing their conclusions on a mere absence of evidence, but he does pretty much the same thing (e.g., the absence of mention of Levites in the Song of Deborah). The only positive example he seems to offer (at least in the linked article, perhaps his larger research has more) is a supposed contrast of names, and even there, one of those is from another tribe.

This is my take as well. I have never had much respect for an apologist’s reliance on “You can’t prove it never happened,” which can apply to almost any miracle in the Bible.

Friedman (whose books I find very useful) here goes beyond even that, and says, “You can’t prove that something that differs in almost every detail with Exodus didn’t happen,” which, sorry, seems kind of pathetic. Why cling to a tiny remnant of the Exodus legend, at the price of giving up Levite descent from Jacob, and, I guess, Abraham?

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

I really don’t care what Finkelstein thinks.

:smack:

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@TonySinclair

Friedman … says, “You can’t prove that something that differs in almost every detail with Exodus didn’t happen,” which, sorry, seems kind of pathetic.

Was that intended as a quote or simply your interpretation?

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

:smack:

he presents no factual evidence. why - should - we care about what he has to say.

[Jayhawker_Soule]

@Robert163

he presents no factual evidence. why - should - we care about what he has to say.

He is a preeminent scholar. He deserves the presumption that his opinion is a well informed one. At the same time, you are free to challenge both his evidence and his conclusions. The views expressed were published in:

I. Finkelstein, “Invisible Nomads: A Rejoinder,” BASOR 287 (1992) 87–88;
I. Finkelstein and A. Perevolotsky, “Processes of Sedentarization and Nomadization in the History of Sinai and the Negev,” BASOR 278 (1990) 67.

And, of course, you are free to simply dismiss them as not worth your while.

[Robert163]

@Jayhawker_Soule

He is a preeminent scholar. He deserves the presumption that his opinion is a well informed one. At the same time, you are free to challenge both his evidence and his conclusions. The views expressed were published in:

I. Finkelstein, “Invisible Nomads: A Rejoinder,” BASOR 287 (1992) 87–88;
I. Finkelstein and A. Perevolotsky, “Processes of Sedentarization and Nomadization in the History of Sinai and the Negev,” BASOR 278 (1990) 67.

And, of course, you are free to simply dismiss them as not worth your while.

do you recognize the difference between a fact and an opinion???