>
> To me, Smaug is the perfect example of a great creature defined by its look and design, yes, but also, very importantly, by his movement and -One little hint- its environment - Think about it… the way he is scaled, moves and is lit, limited or enhanced by his location, weather conditions, light conditions, time of the year, etc.
Sounds like he might go with a dragon more suited to underground lairs/tunnels. The Chinese dragon is more serpentine, and portrayed as more intellectual in mythology… IIRC.
Thoughts?
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/65 "2008-05-28T19:54:52Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
He talks about how the dragon should be shaped is going to be determined by it’s enviornment.
In _Dragonslayer_ ( [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082288/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082288/) ) and _Dragonheart_ ( [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116136/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116136/) ) the dragons appear in the European style.
Considering this comment:
Sounds like he might go with a dragon more suited to underground lairs/tunnels. The Chinese dragon is more serpentine, and portrayed as more intellectual in mythology… IIRC.
Thoughts?
[/QUOTE]
Well we know Smaug is a flyer and there is no way around that fact. How well would that work with the serpentine Chinese dragon?
We do have this classic image of [Smaug](http://www.tuckborough.net/images/smaug.jpg) which is a longer skinnier or more worm-like dragon, so perhaps he is thinking along the same lines.
BTW: I am trying to verify it, but that I am 99% sure that picture in my link was by Professor Tolkien.
Found my cite and two more images from the Hobbit by Tolkien.
[http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Image:J.R.R.\_Tolkien\_-\_Conversation\_with\_Smaug.jpg](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Image:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Conversation_with_Smaug.jpg)
[ ](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Death_of_Smaug.jpg)
[ ](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Smaug_flies_round_the_Mountain.jpg)
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/66 "2008-05-28T20:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Well we know Smaug is a flyer and there is no way around that fact. How well would that work with the serpentine Chinese dragon?
[/QUOTE]
Chinese dragons fly, but can do so because of some innate power, not necessarily because of wings.
> [@wiki](#):
>
> Chinese dragons are occasionally depicted with bat-like wings growing out of the front limbs, but most do not have wings, as their ability to fly (and control rain/water, etc.) are mythical and not seen as a result of their physical attributes.
> **[Chinese dragon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon)**
>
> The Chinese Dragon, known as Long or Loong (/lʊŋ/ LUUNG) is a legendary creature in Chinese mythology, Chinese folklore, and Chinese culture generally. Chinese dragons have many animal-like forms, such as turtles and fish, but are most commonly depicted as snake-like with four legs. Academics have identified four reliable theories on the origin of the Chinese dragon: snakes, Chinese alligators, thunder worship and nature worship. They traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, pa His...
However, I think Tolkien describes the beast as having wings, so it will most likely have them in the movie, as well.
But I was thinking more of the body type.
The European dragons are typically portrayed as muscular and stocky. (Or am I wrong here?)
The Eastern dragons are more slender.
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/67 "2008-05-28T20:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
Chinese dragons fly, but can do so because of some innate power, not necessarily because of wings.
> **[Chinese dragon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon)**
>
> The Chinese Dragon, known as Long or Loong (/lʊŋ/ LUUNG) is a legendary creature in Chinese mythology, Chinese folklore, and Chinese culture generally. Chinese dragons have many animal-like forms, such as turtles and fish, but are most commonly depicted as snake-like with four legs. Academics have identified four reliable theories on the origin of the Chinese dragon: snakes, Chinese alligators, thunder worship and nature worship. They traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, pa His...
However, I think Tolkien describes the beast as having wings, so it will most likely have them in the movie, as well.
But I was thinking more of the body type.
The European dragons are typically portrayed as muscular and stocky. (Or am I wrong here?)
The Eastern dragons are more slender.
[/QUOTE]
Check the pictures and you will see a slender but winged dragon. The first one I linked to is my image of Smaug. I was glad to verify that Professor Tolkien painted it.
While we will never know for sure about Balrogs, we know Smaug and most dragons in Middle Earth had wings. A notable exception was the first dragon Glaurung.
---
### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/68 "2008-05-28T20:15:18Z")
As far as I’m concerned, if it doesn’t look like [this](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KBRP7JEWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg), then it ain’t Smaug.
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/69 "2008-05-28T20:26:32Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Check the pictures and you will see a slender but winged dragon. The first one I linked to is my image of Smaug. I was glad to verify that Professor Tolkien painted it.
While we will never know for sure about Balrogs, we know Smaug and most dragons in Middle Earth had wings. A notable exception was the first dragon Glaurung.
[/QUOTE]
I clicked. Thanks for the links!
The second dragon is a lot more slender than the usual Hollywood dragon. Almost Chinese in it’s slenderness, with the addition of wings.
But while Tolkien may have painted those images, I was asking what **GdT** ’s vision might be.
I am guessing he may lean towards that second image body type. (The first doesn’t seem very long, or Huge-with-a-capital-H.)
The image **Whynot** linked is probably too stocky, based on what I think **GdT** hinted at.
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/70 "2008-05-28T20:47:43Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
I clicked. Thanks for the links!
The second dragon is a lot more slender than the usual Hollywood dragon. Almost Chinese in it’s slenderness, with the addition of wings.
But while Tolkien may have painted those images, I was asking what **GdT** ’s vision might be.
I am guessing he may lean towards that second image body type. (The first doesn’t seem very long, or Huge-with-a-capital-H.)
The image **Whynot** linked is probably too stocky, based on what I think **GdT** hinted at.
[/QUOTE]
I tend to agree, **WhyNot** ’s image is close but slight more modern traditional looking. I think Del Toro would like the Tolkien images as it does appear to be a large creature that could fold wings and get through large tunnels in a snake or worm-like way.
As to the size in the first link, I think there is two factors.
1. Smaug is actually far away from Bilbo in the main great chamber of Erebor.
2. Good Lord, that is truly a huge pile of Gold. It is the combined wealth of a very wealthy dwarven kingdom that was fueled by the strongest Dwarven Ring.
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/71 "2008-05-28T21:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I tend to agree, **WhyNot** ’s image is close but slight more modern traditional looking. I think Del Toro would like the Tolkien images as it does appear to be a large creature that could fold wings and get through large tunnels in a snake or worm-like way.
As to the size in the first link, I think there is two factors.
1. Smaug is actually far away from Bilbo in the main great chamber of Erebor.
2. Good Lord, that is truly a huge pile of Gold. It is the combined wealth of a very wealthy dwarven kingdom that was fueled by the strongest Dwarven Ring.
[/QUOTE]
Granted, it is a hand drawn picture and not a photograph, so the scale could be difficult to determine, but isn’t that Bilbo in the lower right of that first picture? (The black/shadow man shape bending over in a little cloud of smoke.) It kinda made the dragon appear to be 75 feet long.
But the similarities in shape between the first and second pictures you linked are there.
How close did Bilbo get to the dragon?
---
### Author:  [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)
#### Post date: [May 28, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/72 "2008-05-28T21:31:04Z")
And as I pointed out in one of our many prior “cast-the-Hobbit-movie” threads, I would love to hear Hugh Laurie do the voice of Smaug.
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/73 "2008-05-29T00:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
Granted, it is a hand drawn picture and not a photograph, so the scale could be difficult to determine, but isn’t that Bilbo in the lower right of that first picture? (The black/shadow man shape bending over in a little cloud of smoke.) It kinda made the dragon appear to be 75 feet long.
But the similarities in shape between the first and second pictures you linked are there.
How close did Bilbo get to the dragon?
[/QUOTE]
He was very far from Smaug at the point where they were conversing. But no exact measurements are available to my knowledge. On page 110 of the Atlas of Middle Earth Smaug is estimate to be only 60’ long and the chamber only 180’ across. I believe these numbers are understated and the estimate is based on the same picture I linked to.
---
### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/74 "2008-05-29T03:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
He was very far from Smaug at the point where they were conversing. But no exact measurements are available to my knowledge. On page 110 of the Atlas of Middle Earth Smaug is estimate to be only 60’ long and the chamber only 180’ across. I believe these numbers are understated and the estimate is based on the same picture I linked to.
[/QUOTE]
I have that book! In the Notes section (page 196), the author cites “P-17”, which I think means that the source of the estimate to come from “Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien”, pg 17. I do not have this second book.
The second illustration you linked, above, shows Smaug over Lake Town. In that illustration, it appears the dragon is quite large, compared to the buildings below. Again, scale may be distorted, though.
---
### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/75 "2008-05-29T04:18:59Z")
Some other visions of Smaug…
Alan Lee’s:
[ ](http://img-fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee43.jpg)
[ ](http://img-fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee45.jpg)
Paul Gregory’s:
[ ](http://img-fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/images/gregory/smaug.jpg)
The Hildebrandt Brothers’ (a _'way_ too buff dragon, IMHO):
[http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg](http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg)
Don’t know the name of this artist:
[http://www.hot.ee/hendrique/smaug\_over\_esgaroth.jpeg](http://www.hot.ee/hendrique/smaug_over_esgaroth.jpeg)
---
### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/76 "2008-05-29T04:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
Some other visions of Smaug…
Alan Lee’s:
[ ](http://img-fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee43.jpg)
[ ](http://img-fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee45.jpg)
The Hildebrandt Brothers’ (a _'way_ too buff dragon, IMHO):
[http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg](http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg)
[/QUOTE]
Wow – Lee’s Smaug is awesome.
Hildebrandt’s… meh. I think Saint George slew that one, then opened a roadside dragon barbeque stand in East Piddleton.
---
### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/77 "2008-05-29T14:10:13Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
The Hildebrandt Brothers’ (a _'way_ too buff dragon, IMHO):
[http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg](http://www.jigboxx.com/jps/su/su05095.jpg)
[/QUOTE]
I dunno, 'roid rage could explain a few things…
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/78 "2008-05-29T14:33:29Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
Sounds like he might go with a dragon more suited to underground lairs/tunnels. The Chinese dragon is more serpentine, and portrayed as more intellectual in mythology… IIRC.
Thoughts?
[/QUOTE]
The dragon killed by St Michael in a Spanish legend (St Michael of Aralar) isn’t winged or anything. It appears to Teobaldo de Goñi, a warrior who’s living in a cave, doing penance, as “a huge, legged serpent, taller than Teobaldo himself.” That’s a different kind of European dragon who’s suited to caves, although I don’t imagine GDT is familiar with him. Mind you, the lack of wings means he wouldn’t do well flying over the lake.
Many medieval images of dragons look more like bloated, big snakes with tiny claws and tiny wings than like the ones in movies.
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/79 "2008-05-29T14:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
Don’t know the name of this artist:
[http://www.hot.ee/hendrique/smaug\_over\_esgaroth.jpeg](http://www.hot.ee/hendrique/smaug_over_esgaroth.jpeg)
[/QUOTE]
It’s John Howe, isn’t it? I used to have this poster on my wall.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hobbit-is-a-go/446787/80 "2008-05-29T14:43:42Z")
Some images of pre-bloated dragons:
[google “san miguel” + dragón](http://images.google.es/images?um=1&hl=es&rlz=1T4GZFA_esES265ES265&q=%22san+miguel%22+drag%C3%B3n)
[google “san jorge” + dragón](http://images.google.es/images?um=1&hl=es&rlz=1T4GZFA_esES265ES265&q=%22san+jorge%22+drag%C3%B3n&btnG=Buscar+im%C3%A1genes)
I went for the Spanish spellings because I’ve seen in other searches that it can be a good trick to avoid works by modern artists, in the case of popular subjects
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