# The holocaust is a hoax .... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204 "2008-10-23T13:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![MrBerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MrBerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBerious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/261 "2008-10-23T22:04:05Z")
No, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong /thread ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/262 "2008-10-23T22:11:50Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > The OP acknowleges that Jews died of typhus and other “natural” causes, but insists none were intentionally murdered. Of course there is perfectly _innocent_ cause of death, in which millions of Jews were rounded up and numbered and placed in Fun Centers to die of typhus in alphabetical order. And the Germans _would_ have allowed the Red Cross to come in and help if they _could_ have. It’s not like they incinerated all the bodies on _purpose_ to conceal the evidence of any crimes which they may not actually have committed. It’s just that there were these bodies, see, all ready for the coroner to inspect, and they were stacked up next to the incinerator, and somebody tripped over a roller skate, and darn it all if every single one of them wasn’t accidentally destroyed. But if there _had_ been any bodies to autopsy it would have been clear that it was typhus that got 'em. And took their fillings. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/263 "2008-10-23T22:21:55Z")
> [@Allan\_Gurfinkle](#): > > They were placed in concentration camps as part of the Nazi program to transfer all Jews out of Europe. There is no question about this, and it is fully documented with Nazi documents. “Transfer”…“Shoot”…I suppose these are just semantic quibbles, eh. From the [Operational Situation Reports of the Einsaztgruppen](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/einsatz.html): > [@](#): > > [Operational Situation Report USSR No. 156, January 16, 1942](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/osr156.html): > > …On November 30, 1941, 10,600 Jews were shot in Riga. The action was led by the Higher SS and Police Chief. One officer and 20 men of Einsatzkommando took part… > > A major Jewish action took place on November 23, 1941, after the Jewish population, on the previous day, had been requested by means of posters to assemble. In all, 1,538 Jews were shot… > > Einsatzkommando 5 has, up to December 7, 1941, shot 36,147 people. Of this number, during the period November 23 through 30, 1941. > > ``` > 64 political functionaries > 46 saboteurs and looters > 2,615 Jews > were shot. During the period December 1 through 7, 1941, EK 5 shot > 60 political functionaries > 47 saboteurs > 1,417 Jews.... > > ``` > [@](#): > > [Operational Situation Report USSR No. 173, February 25, 1942](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/osr173.html): > > …In the course of a routine Security Police screening of an additional part of the civilian population around Leningrad, 140 more people had to be shot. The reasons for this were as follows: > > ``` > a) Active participation in the Communist Party before the arrival of the German troops; > b) Seditious and provocative activity since the arrival of the German Army; > c) Partisan activity; > d) Espionage; > e) Belonging to the Jewish race.... > > ``` > [@](#): > > [Operational Situation Report USSR No. 186, March 27, 1942](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/osr186.html): > > …Further large-scale actions against Jews, for instance, in Rakov and Cherven (15,000 Jews were shot in Cherven) caused insecurity, even some anxiety among the Byelorussian population, whose educated circles remarked that they are not used to such actions since the time of the Soviets and [worried] that there might be unforseen consequences to such measures… Shooting that many people presented the Nazis with serious logistical problems; as the last quotation notes, it was making the locals nervous; and even for hardened Nazis comitting that many murders while having to actually look at their victims took a psychological toll. Hence the construction of factory-style extermination camps with gas chambers, and crematoria for the disposal of the dead. (An intermediate step was the use of mobile extermination vans, sometimes simply using the carbon monoxide from the truck’s own exhaust, routing it into the cabin into which the prisoners had been loaded.) But all of these things (mass shootings, gas vans, full-scale extermination camps with Zyklon B-dispensing gas chambers) were simply means to an end; the end being genocide (not “transfer” or “resettlement”). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/264 "2008-10-23T22:25:56Z")
This is a classic Strange Loop (thanks to Robert Anton Wilson for the term). Yes, I suppose it’s possible to imagine a conspiracy so vast and far-reaching that they could manufacture all the evidence pointing toward the gassing of Jews in concentration camps. But any conspiracy capable of manufacturing all that evidence would find it **trivial** to manufacture the Cole video. Writing a few books denying the Holocaust would be a piece of cake for such a mammoth organization. Someone who believes the tiny bit of evidence pointing toward a massive conspiracy must ask themselves: have they discovered the **right** conspiracy? Why believe the evidence pointing at the conspiracy? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/265 "2008-10-23T22:33:55Z")
All this talk about concentration camps and I can’t get Yakety Sax out of my head. I’m going to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/266 "2008-10-23T22:36:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I recall a story that one Greek mathematician offered a holocaust of 100 bulls after devising a proof that the square root of two is not a rational number. There certainly is a lot of bull being offered in this thread, I tell you whut. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/267 "2008-10-23T22:38:45Z")
After reading through this thread I see that Allan still hasn’t addressed where the Jews went after the war. He also hasn’t addressed the questions regarding window glass, or its relevance to the topic. H hasn’t acknowledged how deadly the gas is to humans even though it was used for 70 years in the US to execute prisoners. He hasn’t addressed the need to use a highly toxic gas to exterminate insects on clothing WHILE PEOPLE ARE WEARING THEM. In addition he neglects direct evidence that Hitler was aware of the mass murder and was given updates of it. His evidence that it didn’t happen started with a correction from 4 million to 1.5 million dead at a concentration camp as if a better account somehow negates the death of over a million people. And his revelation that explains his motives for the thread is that he is unhappy with the existence of Israel. Much patience and civility has been given in exchange for nothing. If Allan isn’t willing to debate then this thread should be closed. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/268 "2008-10-23T22:58:13Z")
Funny, I didn’t realize President Ahmadinejad posted here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/269 "2008-10-23T23:39:35Z")
> [@Allan\_Gurfinkle](#): > > BTW, the case is eerily similar to the case of Andersonville at the end of the US Civil war. The commandant was tried at a hoax trial and convicted of killing prisoners, and executed. Wirz was his name. He was 100% innocent. As was Kramer. Dude, [Henry Wirz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wirz) was guilty as Cain. The worst thing you can say about his conviction is that it was “victor’s justice” – conditions were near as bad in some Union POW camps, but the officers in charge (who had not even Wirz’ excuse of inadequate food supplies available) were never brought to account. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/270 "2008-10-23T23:43:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He hasn’t addressed the need to use a highly toxic gas to exterminate insects on clothing WHILE PEOPLE ARE WEARING THEM. No, IIRC, they got naked first, as anyone would before going into a shower. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/271 "2008-10-23T23:46:44Z")
BTW, interesting bit from the above Wiki link on Henry Wirz: > [@](#): > > Wirz’s trial was depicted in the 1970 television film The Andersonville Trial, directed by George C. Scott who had appeared in the Broadway play by Saul Levitt upon which it was based. It featured Richard Basehart as Wirz and William Shatner as chief government prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel N.P. Chipman. The film centered upon the question of whether Wirz should have been condemned for following orders, in a parallel with the then-current controversy over the My Lai Massacre during the Vietnam War. “Just following orders” . . . I seem to recall that argument being made in some other context . . . anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/272 "2008-10-23T23:50:09Z")
I’ll admit I haven’t read every post in depth, but I wanted to add just in case it hasn’t been mentioned that most Dopers would agree with Gurfinkle on one thing: the arrest of some writers and speakers in non U.S. countries for Holocaust Denial is wrong and goes against some of the core American values. While most of them are, to say the least, less than admired or admirable in the integrity of their research, they should have the right to express super unpopular views without loss of liberty. That said, there’s a reason that no really respected historian specializing in the area of WW2 has ever dismissed the gas chambers or the Holocaust in general (some _have_ questioned numbers or individual accounts [such as the making of soap from bodies- that’s been largely dispelled]). It’s because there are mountains of evidence- primary, secondary, anecdotal, circumstantial, documentary, photographic, etc., that it happened, and approximately NONE that it didn’t. (As for the numbers- if it was 6 million Jews or 5,500,000 or even 3 million [which is certainly too low], does it really matter? The point is that millions of men, women, and children ranging from newborns to centenarians were systematically enslaved and intentionally murdered [and their property confiscated] due to their ethnicity.) Michael Shermer did a really good treatment in his book WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE WEIRD THINGS. [There’s a run-down here](http://skepdic.com/holocaustdenial.html). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/273 "2008-10-23T23:58:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, IIRC, they got naked first, as anyone would before going into a shower. According to Allan they were all delousing chambers. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/274 "2008-10-24T00:04:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a classic Strange Loop (thanks to Robert Anton Wilson for the term). Douglas Hofstadter in _Godel, Escher, Bach_, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Allan\_Gurfinkle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@Allan\_Gurfinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Allan_Gurfinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/275 "2008-10-24T00:08:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Who claims that 6,000,000 were killed is gas chambers? This is from the USHMM … “Between 1941 and 1944, Nazi German authorities deported millions of Jews from Germany, from occupied territories, and from the countries of many of its Axis allies to ghettos and to killing centers, often called extermination camps, where they were murdered in specially developed gassing facilities.” [http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143) We’ve had a look at the ‘specially designed gassing facility’ at Auschwitz and Majdanek . How absurd can it get. You need to understand that the USHMM statement is a grotesque, degenerate lie. These lies are commonplace in the holocaust story. These are monstrous slanders against the Nazis, and by generalization, white Christian European society. They have been used for fifty years to blackmail the world. For fifty years the middle east has been identified as the most likely flash point for WW III. The holocaust lies have put everyone in great danger. I always hope for a rational and reasoned discussion. I always try to avoid ‘zero content’ and ad hominem posts. There’s been a lot of evasion and insult in this thread, and it is apparent that no one knows much about the subject, or, if they do know something, they find it more convenient to feign naivete’, and no one, save a few, want to take the subject seriously for even an instant. I expect the Zionists to scream the loudest of course, produce the most virulent ridicule, insult, evasion, obfuscation, etc., and the posts to this thread have not been surprising. It is a matter of religious or revealed truth to them. I am dismayed by their tactics which demean themselves in my view. Just let me add, if you are not a Zionist, simply read my posts for what they are, try to take them seriously, see if you can understand the weight of my argument before trying to dream up a harebrained objection. If you do this, and treat the subject with an open mind, you will shortly be in for a big surprise. For the quickest wake up, see the Cole video … [http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html](http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/276 "2008-10-24T00:12:54Z")
“Slanders against the Nazis” are impossible. There are falsehoods, but it’s impossible to damage their reputation, and rightly so - because they’re responsible for killing tens of millions of people. How do you account for the eyewitnesses to this period of history? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/277 "2008-10-24T00:13:49Z")
Wow. It’s like somebody opened the box on Shroedingers Racist. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/278 "2008-10-24T00:20:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Dude, [Henry Wirz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wirz) was guilty as Cain. . You may be right, but the wiki article you linked to doesn’t give this impression. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Allan\_Gurfinkle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@Allan\_Gurfinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Allan_Gurfinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/279 "2008-10-24T00:25:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How do you account for the eyewitnesses to this period of history? The ‘eyewitness testimony’ is the best evidence of a hoax. However, you must actually look at it. Get Muller’s book, mentioned earlier. This is THE eyewitness account. After six pages you will know that it is degenerate phantasmagoria. Really, the first six pages are ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE, so absurd its funny (trust me). I have a little discussion of it prepared titled “The Terrible Tea Service at Auschwitz” (if you read the first six pages you’ll understand the title). I will introduce a thread on the book if appropriate where we can look at it in detail. Weisel’s book “Night” is also a good subject for discussion as more are familiar with it. You only have to read this with a 1% critical eye to know its lies. Note that Weisel didn’t mention in his entire book any gas chambers. Also, you can use the amazon search inside the book feature to see that he describes taking a shower on six separate occasions, expressly for the purpose of disinfection. NO THOUGHT OF BEING GASSED. Weisel is a great denier witness. But, this is all evasion in this thread. This thread should be about the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek. If I cannot convince you that these ‘gas chambers’ are hoaxes, then I cannot convince you of anything. This has to be the starting point. So, from my perspective, there is no sense discussing anything else until the hoax gas chambers are fully acknowledged and explored. ---
**Author:** ![spoike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@spoike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spoike)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204/280 "2008-10-24T00:27:03Z")
> [@Allan\_Gurfinkle](#): > > …If I cannon convince you that these ‘gas chambers’ are hoaxes, then I cannot convince you of anything… Awesome. I think you’re done then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holocaust-is-a-hoax/469204.md?page=15)