# The holy trinity (Not religious) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 2, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479 "2023-05-02T21:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/41 "2023-05-03T18:51:56Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > If you were an atheist, you’d see easily that the trinity is a simple, after-the-fact rationalization for the deification of Jesus which flatly contradicts the bedrock of monotheism, that there is and can be only one God. So they made up a cockamamie way that “more than one” can equal “one” if you hold your head this way and squint that makes no sense to any rational creature and they refer to it as a mystery that cannot be properly understood by rational creatures. You don’t have to be an atheist to see that, it’s obvious from **any** non-Christian POV. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/42 "2023-05-03T18:52:50Z")
Speaking as a Jew, I concur. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/43 "2023-05-03T18:54:33Z")
Before Jesus, was there a concept of a Duality (God and Holy Spirit), or any mention of a separate Holy Spirit at all? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/44 "2023-05-03T18:56:16Z")
There’s no mention of any such thing in the “Old Testament”, though I imagine the Christians have probably found some verses to support their retcon. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/45 "2023-05-03T18:57:18Z")
Like, how hard is it to get monotheism wrong? “You had ONE God!” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/46 "2023-05-03T19:05:27Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Why would I approach any potentially valuable piece of philosophy with an attitude that would shut down my thinking about it??? How did you determine that this even is a potentially valuable piece of philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/47 "2023-05-03T19:41:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > How did you determine that this even is a potentially valuable piece of philosophy? It just struck me as something very profound in that it was presented as something that could not be rectified. Yet they felt it was worth risking credibility over.. I think many things that are not obvious on the surface are quickly written off as irrelevant. When a person of faith sets out to know god he get to know him as a father, and as a son and as a holy spirit. Each one of these would become his ideal! These character traits could all live within one person while still being mostly independent of one another.. I can easily see this as a valuable character building addition to ones sense of self. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/48 "2023-05-03T19:42:11Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Why would I approach any potentially valuable piece of philosophy with an attitude that would shut down my thinking about it??? Your OP, and other responses in this thread, suggest that you’re assuming that what is written in the Bible about the Trinity (or other topics) was written written by someone whom you might consider to be an actual philosopher, and written _with a philosophical orientation_ in mind. There are certainly philosophical conversations and thought experiments that one can have about the contents of the Bible (and such have been happening for the history of Christianity, at a minimum), but the Bible itself wasn’t written as a treatise in philosophy – it was written as a document about the tenets of a faith, and the history\* of that faith. It’s about the “what,” not the “how” or the “why.” \*- to the extent that one accepts that the historical content of the Bible is in any way accurate. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/49 "2023-05-03T19:58:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > it was written as a document about the tenets of a faith, and the history\* of that faith. It’s about the “what,” not the “how” or the “why.” I know very little about the bible beyond the occasional verse I am exposed to. I prefer to look at them at face value with no background information. I am not even concerned with the context in which they were written.in most cases. Lets substitute the word father with boss, teacher, leader etc. Substitute the word son for employee, student, member etc. Substitute holy spirit with a good man in society. . It is easy for me to see some parallels there with a trinity. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/50 "2023-05-03T20:10:55Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I am not even concerned with the context in which they were written.in most cases. Lets substitute the word father with boss, teacher, leader etc. Substitute the word son for employee, student, member etc. Substitute holy spirit with a good man in society. . It is easy for me to see some parallels there with a trinity. Which is fine; if you’re a non-Christian, but curious to understand if Biblical scripture can provide philosophical context for you as you live your life, that’s grand. But, that’s not what you asked about or posited in your original post: > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > They have God the father, God the son, and God the holy ghost. Speaking just for myself I have a very distinct identity as a father, I have another distinct identity as a son and lastly, I have a distinct spiritual identity. (ethics and morals). But I am still one person! **Could this be what the philosopher was referring to when this was written?** (bolding mine) You literally asked if could be that the person who wrote about the Holy Trinity in the Bible, 2000-ish years ago, was using it as an analogy to the different “identities” that **a person** has within their selves and their lives, rather than it being a literal description of the nature of the Christian God. That’s a different kind of question, and which I think you’ve seen the people who have responded to you here have disagreed with. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/51 "2023-05-03T20:31:18Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > You literally asked if could be that the person who wrote about the Holy Trinity in the Bible, 2000-ish years ago, was using it as an analogy to the different “identities” that **a person** has within their selves and their lives, rather than it being a literal description of the nature of the Christian God. That’s a different kind of question, and which I think you’ve seen the people who have responded to you here have disagreed with. I am kind of working off the seat of my pants here it isn’t really something I have given much thought to. So I can easily see where I may have been misleading or even changed direction. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/52 "2023-05-03T20:38:41Z")
A couple of things for the OP to consider, following up on @kenobi_65’s excellent points. First, we have plenty of OG SD material on the many, MANY writers involved in creating the document called the Bible, although arguably we can just focus on the New Testament per the OP’s seeming interest. Which means that A) there’s really no point in talking about “the” author / philosopher’s intent as there are multiple stories in the NT (and a terrifying number of threads about that) and how much of that material is contradictory, shows sign of pulling from other missing sources, and is / is not canonical. The second point I wanted to talk about is IF you want to talk about how the NT works as a philosophical work (and arguably, it does better than the OT does, which is indeed more the story of the Hebrew people than anything else) it’s fine, but it’s IMHO a clumsy one, due to the aforementioned inconsistences, contradictions, and (back to the OP’s interest in the Trininity) intrinsic need to fall upon faith rather than explanations. In that sense, if I want to look for metaphors that work to explain how I interact as a person both physically and mentally (spiritually, meh, not my thing) I find it better to find a philosophical treatise that actually speaks to me and my experience without the trappings of the fantastic. This is not to cast shade on the OP, if they find that the Christian Trinity works well as a metaphor for their existence, great! But to assume that biblical studies of that particular facet of the religion is intended to work for everyone that way? That’s a bridge too far, per the earlier scholarly reviews of Biblical thought on authorship are problematic at intent at best (see the earlier talk of selling Christianity to the Jews) and the religious studies on the nature of the Trinity always follow from first causes of faith. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/53 "2023-05-03T20:46:04Z")
What I am really looking for is some kind of common ground between theists and atheists. I hate to think of everything thing in religion being cast aside simply because it is based on a premise of a god. I too often feel society will reject everything because of a few things they don’t agree with, and this could apply to a lot of things ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/54 "2023-05-03T20:59:59Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > What I am really looking for is some kind of common ground between theists and atheists. I hate to think of everything thing in religion being cast aside simply because it is based on a premise of a god. If that is your intention, then why pick such an obscure and twisted concept as the trinity? It’s not even a concept directly expressed in the NT (I don’t think the word itself ever appears in the gospels), but constructed later by early Christians from parts of scripture and an ever lasting point of discussion and schism among different Christian denominations and sects. Why not pick something like “love thy neighbor”? That’s a common concept that both Christians (and other religious people) and atheists could and should agree on. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/55 "2023-05-03T21:00:33Z")
I don’t reject the bible as history or literature, I just reject the bible (the fantastic elements of at least) as factual. And that’s the problem. If you’re religious (and of that specific group of religions), you have to work within a framework of capital T Truth to one degree or another. If you’re an atheist, you explicitly don’t. An atheist can look at it as you did, and find it an inspired metaphor for their personal existence. A person of that faith can see it as that, but have to also deal with the belief based issues that the metaphor ISN’T the point, it’s secondary to the unknowable nature of God. Going back to my earlier post in the thread, the Triune Goddess is just as powerful a metaphor, but tied into the (traditional) female experience. Neither it, nor the Christian Trinity is _complete_ in an sort of review of a society composed of a multiplicity of genders and orientations. But when embracing a religious POV of philosophy, you very quickly come to the problem of having to accept that the parts you disagree with are just as valid to the structure of faith as the parts that speak to you. For example, the current (and past) threads on the most recent Pope. Sure, from the POV of a progressive Westerner, he’s a LOT more pleasant than past iterations in the role. But _he’s still the Pope_ and hasn’t changed the faith in ways that some people would prefer. But if you’re Catholic, he is literally the chosen voice of God on Earth. So either you’re a bad Catholic, or, _gasp_ God is somehow wrong. [yes I’m simplifying, I don’t want to make this even LONGER] So it’s really, really hard to try to find a midpoint between an atheist and deist approach to works that are by definition, religious. And it’s not needed. If it works for you, you can fully enjoy the works of multiple religions as philosophies, as metaphors, as social works, or even social “just-so” stories. That’s the common ground you speak of, or at least, it is to me. To say that each and every religious work has some ‘objective’ value or factuality that all persons, deist or otherwise should be able to agree on is a whoooole 'nother kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/56 "2023-05-03T21:06:26Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > If that is your intention, then why pick such an obscure and twisted concept as the trinity? It’s not even a concept directly expressed in the NT (I don’t think the word itself ever appears in the gospels), but constructed later by early Christians from parts of scripture and an ever lasting point of discussion and schism among different Christian denominations and sects I chose th trinity in this particular instance because I think there is a powerful message there as it may relate to our own need to build an identity that we are happy with, and something that actually works for us in an approach to life in modern society. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/57 "2023-05-03T21:09:35Z")
But as others have said, nothing about your idea of the trinity as a metaphor for an individual’s roles in life is supported by Christian scripture and commentary. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/58 "2023-05-03T21:11:46Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I chose th trinity in this particular instance because I think there is a powerful message there as it may relate to our own need to build an identity that we are happy with, and something that actually works for us in an approach to life in modern society. The challenge I think you’d run into with this particular idea is that, while it obviously works for you, as a non-believer, you’d find that many (most?) Christians won’t be interested in exploring it, because, to them, the Trinity isn’t about that, in the slightest, and they may bristle at using one of the key mysteries of their faith as an analogy. If you’re truly looking for elements of Christianity or faith that can be found to be useful for both theists and non-theists, I think that it’d be things like “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/59 "2023-05-03T21:43:11Z")
[quote=“kenobi\_65, post:58, topic:983479”] The challenge I think you’d run into with this particular idea is that, while it obviously works for you, as a non-believer, you’d find that many (most?) Christians won’t be interested in exploring it, because, to them, the Trinity isn’t about that, in the slightest, and they may bristle at using one of the key mysteries of their faith as an analogy. [/quote I have a feeling that the concept of religion may be changing in coming decades. I am not comfortable with an entire rejection of any kind of super natural force, and I don’t like the idea of complete rejection of anything that comes from religion. But I am strongly in favor of recognizing that much of religion was based on people’s ability to comprehend the concepts that were being laid out.so thy would simply attribute things to whatever they wanted as was convenient. I don’t really think religion is as much about God as many of us believe, it seems to be more about " Self" . We are made in the image and likeness of god. If god has three persons then so do we. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479/60 "2023-05-03T21:45:22Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > We are made in the image and likeness of god. If god has three persons then so do we. And if god _doesn’t,_ then can I be — a person? Am I doing the math right on that one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-holy-trinity-not-religious/983479.md?page=4)