# The Hornblower Gambit: Could you get away with this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980 "2010-03-19T04:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![a35362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@a35362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a35362)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/1 "2010-03-19T04:23:28Z")
In one or two of the Horatio Hornblower stories (see the first couple minutes of[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRD6TxNLsds&feature=related)), Hornblower violates “the Articles of War” by sneakily flying French colors rather than British, so that the French ships think he’s a friend, allow him to get close and then of course BLAM! He opens fire and wins the fight. Now, does anyone here know if this tactic was actually used, and did the perpetrator get hauled in front of a review board, or maybe the gallows? Wouldn’t there be political repercussions? I mean, all’s fair in war, but he’s cheating! ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/2 "2010-03-19T05:11:15Z")
The German auxiliary cruiser [Kormoran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Kormoran) sunk the Australian light cruiser HMAS Sydney through exactly this kind of tactic in 1941. Disguised as a Dutch merchant ship she lured the larger ship within range of her smaller guns, dropped her disguise and opened up. Despite being only armed and armoured as a merchant raider she sunk the Sydney with all 645 hands, losing only 70 of her own 400 crew (but they were forced to abandon ship and beach due to damage suffered). No, there were no political repercussions. But this was WWII Germany we’re talking about here, not exactly a high point in military gallantry. ---
**Author:** ![mrpayday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@mrpayday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrpayday)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/3 "2010-03-19T05:30:12Z")
According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) it’s legal in naval warfare, illegal in air warfare and sometimes legal in land warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/4 "2010-03-19T05:32:06Z")
[The Naval Origins of some Popular English Phrases:](http://scheong.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/showing-your-true-colours-the-naval-origins-of-some-popular-english-phrases/) > [@](#): > > In naval warfare of the 18th century, your ‘colours’ were your flags, specifically, your naval jack (the naval flag of the country which your ship was a part of). Under the Articles of War (the Royal Navy’s code of conduct for nearly 400 years; discontinued in 2006!), when going into battle, you were obliged to run up your colours (your naval flag), to identify the nationality of your ship. If you wished to deceive your enemy, you might run up a different flag than that which belonged to your country, perhaps to make the other ship think that you were an ally. Once you were nice and close, within firing-range, you’d literally ’show your true colours’ as say, a British Man-o’-War instead of a French one, and open fire on a French warship, catching its crews off-guard and gaining an advantage in battle. > > Sailing into battle under false colours went against the Articles of War, but unscrupulous captains and officers who cared more for payback and beating the enemy than stuffy rules and regulations, would often go into action with false colours in order to gain the element of surprise. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/5 "2010-03-19T05:40:26Z")
… but he’s cheating! well yes, and he’s not coming second either. If he’d been captured he would have been executed as a spy, and if he’d done nothing he’d have been court martialled. If brought before the Admiralty he would have simply claimed that abandoning the Indefatiguable was unthinkable and in the heat of battle his crew had more important things to do. “My dear chap, that was a most regretable oversight. Please ensure it never happens again and here is your promotion” ---
**Author:** ![mrpayday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@mrpayday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrpayday)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/6 "2010-03-19T06:32:48Z")
> [@mrpayday](#): > > According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) it’s legal in naval warfare, illegal in air warfare and sometimes legal in land warfare. sorry, the naval one is the same as the land one, require the false colours to be changed before combat ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/7 "2010-03-19T08:10:26Z")
It was not uncommon in Nelson’s time (Hornblower being loosely based on Nelson). False flags were lowered and the true colours raised just as the guns were about to fire, so it was legal, and both sides did it. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/8 "2010-03-19T08:13:53Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > If he’d been captured he would have been executed as a spy. Nonsense. As I said above, it was a legally valid tactic used by both sides. Show me a cite for any captured Naval officer being tried (let alone executed) for “spying” because of a false flag operation during the Napoleonic wars. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/9 "2010-03-19T09:43:34Z")
Unable to find a cite with my Google skills, so I’ll defer. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/10 "2010-03-19T10:28:33Z")
Anyway, Patrick O’Brien has Captain Jack Aubrey do this any number of times so it must be true 😃 ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/11 "2010-03-19T14:05:17Z")
In the Hornblower books, as opposed to the series, he used false colors as well. It was a standard tactic. There were some rules - you had to fly your own colors before opening fire, and you weren’t allowed to fly an “in distress” flag falsely. Since every one knew the rules, it wasn’t that big a deal - any warship knew to treat another ship as a potential enemy regardless of flag until you confirmed it’s identity. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/12 "2010-03-19T14:09:30Z")
I’ve only done a quick perusal of the subject, but it [appears](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war) that it _is_ legal for soldiers to disguise themselves in the uniform of the enemy, so long as they do no actual fighting while in that uniform. If this is correct, then the Hornblower Gambit is legal. Fly whichever flag you wish to deceive the enemy, but make sure your true colours are raised before ever you fire the first shot. IIRC, if one were to fire on enemy ships whilst one is flying _no_ colours (or colours signifying no internationally recognized nation) is an act of piracy. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/13 "2010-03-19T14:48:56Z")
The Germans didn’t just do this on the Western Front in WWII, but also in the East-- [see this page for German-captured T-34s disguised as Soviet tanks](http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-t-34r-soviet-t-34-in-german-service.htm). In [David Glantz’s book on the Battle of Kursk](http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Kursk-David-M-Glantz/dp/0700613358), he recounts the opening moves of Army Detachment Kempf which involved a night road march of a German column led by the captured T-34s. In the darkness, they passed multiple Soviet checkpoints fooling the defenders, at least for a little while. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/14 "2010-03-19T14:59:15Z")
It was pretty much standard practice to try and buy a few minutes hesitation from approaching ships. This goes so far for British commanders ordering their crews to adjust sails in a ‘sloppy’ fashion to further the allusion that they were not a well trained British crew. However, an experienced seaman could easily identify a ships nationality of origin by simply looking at it from a reasonable distance. Different countries built ships with reconizable builts, and they set their sails different. Paint schemes could also be revealing. Consequently captured ships that were later brought into a foreign countries service could pass the deception better than home built ones. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/15 "2010-03-19T16:53:39Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > …However, an experienced seaman could easily identify a ships nationality of origin by simply looking at it from a reasonable distance. Different countries built ships with reconizable builts, and they set their sails different. Paint schemes could also be revealing. Even in the modern age, it’s advantageous to be able to identify vessels based on their profile. When I was a submarine officer, we used to get ship profile quizzes from the XO during morning training. We were expected to be able to identify the most common warships out there from their silhouette, including submarines on the surface. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/16 "2010-03-19T18:42:18Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > It was pretty much standard practice to try and buy a few minutes hesitation from approaching ships. This goes so far for British commanders ordering their crews to adjust sails in a ‘sloppy’ fashion to further the allusion that they were not a well trained British crew. To take this a little further, the British in WWI operated decoy ships disguised as small commercial vessels, to lure in U-boats seeking an easy target. The Brits wore civilian clothes and put on elaborate charades, including running about in apparent panic when torpedoed (these “Q-ships” carried special buoyant cargoes to make them hard to sink). When the Germans moved in on the surface for the coup de grace, all of a sudden the Q-ship’s crew would unlimber concealed guns and blow the U-boat out of the water. Not very sporting, what? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/17 "2010-03-19T18:48:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not very sporting, what? No, but neither is torpedoing merchant ships. Going back to the OP, could be embarrassing if both ships were running under false flags. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/18 "2010-03-19T20:10:48Z")
In modern warfare, at least, there’s the notion of “recognition codes”, where one ship can challenge another with a code, and expect to get the appropriate response. Nowadays, this would be done with computers and asymmetric public-key encryption, but was there some lower-tech equivalent used before computers? Alternately, did ships carry books of lists of legitimate vessels, so if an unknown vessel claimed to be the Dutch-registry merchantman _Tulip_, say, you could at least verify that there was a Dutch ship by that name? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/19 "2010-03-19T20:20:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In modern warfare, at least, there’s the notion of “recognition codes”, where one ship can challenge another with a code, and expect to get the appropriate response. Nowadays, this would be done with computers and asymmetric public-key encryption, but was there some lower-tech equivalent used before computers? Alternately, did ships carry books of lists of legitimate vessels, so if an unknown vessel claimed to be the Dutch-registry merchantman _Tulip_, say, you could at least verify that there was a Dutch ship by that name? In both the Aubrey/Maturin and the Hornblower books, there was a private signal - you’d hoist say a blue signal flag at the foremast and 2 red flags at the mizzen, and the other guy was supposed to respond with 2 blues on the mainmast. They’d do a similar thing with lights at night. It wasn’t foolproof of course - they had signal books that told them what the private signals would be for the next several years, and even though they were supposed to go overboard in case of capture, they did fall into enemy hands on occasion. And mistakes could easily be made by an incompetent or drunken sailor or mid. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980/20 "2010-03-19T21:25:01Z")
What are the rules for submarines? Do they have to surface and fly colors before releasing a torpedo? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hornblower-gambit-could-you-get-away-with-this/532980.md?page=2)