# The horse is still evolving? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2014, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415 "2014-09-24T07:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/1 "2014-09-24T07:31:30Z")
So, turns out my mother-in-law is a creationist. I hadn’t cottoned on to it before, as we don’t have a lot in common (she’s also a tea-partier, so she’s fitting the stereotype pretty well), but yesterday my in-laws and I went to London’s Natural History Museum. All went pretty well until we encountered a small display explaining the evolution of the horse over the last 50 million years. > [@](#): > > MIL: “But if that we true, the horse would still be evolving today, and it’s not.” > > Me: “You what?” > > MIL: “The horse isn’t evolving now, so it can’t ever have evolved.” > > Me: “That’s because the horse has been domesticated, and humans are guiding its present evolution. You can’t ‘see’ it evolved as it happens over huge expanses of time.” Anyway, that ended the conversation for the moment. But was I accurate? It sounded so at the time, but having done a quick google, it seems creationists latch on to the ‘horses aren’t evolving’ thing as some kind of ‘proof’ that evolution is false. Obviously it’s crud. I’ve found plenty for other animals, but any indications of present horse evolution? ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/2 "2014-09-24T08:21:02Z")
What evidence for other animals have you found that doesn’t equally apply to wild horses? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/3 "2014-09-24T08:39:45Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > What evidence for other animals have you found that doesn’t equally apply to wild horses? I’ve found examples such as a butterfly that adapted the colour of its wings to hide in polluted areas, or that human evolution is still going on so we are adapting to new diets and so on. I specifically hoped for something about how the horse is presently evolving as it seems it’s a point my MIL latched on to. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/4 "2014-09-24T08:52:02Z")
I would think that the different types of horses adapted to labour([http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg](http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg)) and racing([http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg](http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg)) are great examples. They’re examples of evolution by human(as opposed to natural) selection, but they’re still examples of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/5 "2014-09-24T09:10:27Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I would think that the different types of horses adapted to labour([http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg](http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg)) and racing([http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg](http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg)) are great examples. They’re examples of evolution by human(as opposed to natural) selection, but they’re still examples of evolution. Thanks, that’s the type of stuff I was thinking of. I said domestication dictated horse evolution now, but at the time couldn’t think of examples! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/6 "2014-09-24T09:16:36Z")
Even with examples of changes in horse phenotype in wild horses over the last few hundred years, your m-i-l will just move the goal posts to “that’s just microevolution”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/7 "2014-09-24T09:20:57Z")
The horse has probably evolved more in the last thousand years than at any time prior to that. IIRC there’s mention in one of the ancient greek historians of army horses being roughly shoulder-to-head height. That’s obviously fairly different to today ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/8 "2014-09-24T09:22:11Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I would think that the different types of horses adapted to labour([http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg](http://www.discover-horse-carriage-driving.com/images/ardennes01.jpg)) and racing([http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg](http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/IMAGES/Maryland/ThoroughbredHorse-racing.jpg)) are great examples. They’re examples of evolution by human(as opposed to natural) selection, but they’re still examples of evolution. Won’t mother-in-law just say that Noah put two(\*) racehorses on the ark _and_ two workhorses? (\* - Or seven. Are horses “clean” or “unclean” beasts?) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/9 "2014-09-24T09:27:08Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I’ve found examples such as a butterfly that adapted the colour of its wings to hide in polluted areas, Did it? Or did some members of the species already have wings of that colour, and it is only those and their descendants that we predominantly find in polluted areas? Can new features arise spontaneously, and if so, how? Are the butterflies with the non-polluted colouring still alive and well and living in rural environments? Has speciation in fact occurred? …Probably more fertile ground to explore than snarking on the Biblical account of the flood, or poisoning the well by saying “they’re just going to move the goalposts” as though the existence of different-coloured butterflies proved that the modern horse is a lineal descendant of _Eohippus_. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/10 "2014-09-24T09:38:47Z")
All I can suggest is that you take her to see the [Harriet and Robert Heilbrunn Cosmic Pathway](http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent-exhibitions/rose-center-for-earth-and-space/harriet-and-robert-heilbrunn-cosmic-pathway) in the Natural History Museum in New York. If that doesn’t convince her, nothing will. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/11 "2014-09-24T09:41:09Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Did it? Or did some members of the species already have wings of that colour, and it is only those and their descendants that we predominantly find in polluted areas? Can new features arise spontaneously, and if so, how? Are the butterflies with the non-polluted colouring still alive and well and living in rural environments? Has speciation in fact occurred? Yes, but I couldn’t be arsed to spout all that when I presume that most knowledgeable people here would get my drift anyway. > [@](#): > > …Probably more fertile ground to explore than snarking on the Biblical account of the flood, or poisoning the well by saying “they’re just going to move the goalposts” as though the existence of different-coloured butterflies proved that the modern horse is a lineal descendant of _Eohippus_. None of this was me, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/12 "2014-09-24T09:51:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Won’t mother-in-law just say that Noah put two(\*) racehorses on the ark _and_ two workhorses? Actually no, and this goes to the heart of why you can’t really reason with many people on this. On the ark, there were the original “kinds”. Only a few hundred or possibly thousands of these. But over time, their descendants’ genes because _corrupted_ by the Fall, resulting in the millions of species we see today. Now, this corruption may _sound like_ evolution, but importantly: something, something information, no further questions. So in terms of the OP, it wouldn’t even matter if you found a species of horse that could deep sea dive for turtles and communicated via radio waves. It can be hand-waved the same way. You can at least try to explain to your friend though, that one difference between evolution and creationism is the former makes testable claims: about what fossils we may subsequently find, or how different species genotypes may relate etc. Creationism makes no testable claims. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/13 "2014-09-24T09:58:26Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Yes, but I couldn’t be arsed to spout all that when I presume that most knowledgeable people here would get my drift anyway. As long as you can be arsed to spout it when you are aiming to educate people about evolution, that’s all good. > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > None of this was me, dude. I know. Merely suggesting that some of the advice you were being given was of less than top quality. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/14 "2014-09-24T10:06:52Z")
Aren’t ALL animals always evolving? I mean, with humans, I get that we’re keeping the weak genes alive through the wonders of modern medicine (and social morality) but we haven’t stopped it completely have we? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/15 "2014-09-24T10:41:19Z")
All organisms are still evolving. Evolution is the inevitable consequence of meeting a small handful of conditions (imperfect reproduction, competition, etc.). We couldn’t “stop” or “prevent” evolution any more than we could stop the earth from revolving around the sun. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/16 "2014-09-24T10:45:36Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > All organisms are still evolving. Evolution is the inevitable consequence of meeting a small handful of conditions (imperfect reproduction, competition, etc.). We couldn’t “stop” or “prevent” evolution any more than we could stop the earth from revolving around the sun. How about if we start cloning all life? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/17 "2014-09-24T11:28:47Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Aren’t ALL animals always evolving? I mean, with humans, I get that we’re keeping the weak genes alive through the wonders of modern medicine (and social morality) but we haven’t stopped it completely have we? Some of us are evolving and others are devolving. It evens out I hope. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/18 "2014-09-24T11:57:58Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > How about if we start cloning all life? The world is full of life cloning itself. Still evolving. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/19 "2014-09-24T14:10:09Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Some of us are evolving and others are devolving. It evens out I hope. :dubious: There is no such thing a devolving. The use of that word is placing a subjective judgement on changes that occur over time. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415/20 "2014-09-24T14:28:43Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > How about if we start cloning all life? Then we, as humans, are exerting selective pressure, eliminating new mutations. Keep in mind that the vast majority of life on this planet - bacteria - has been reproducing asexually since day one. Each bacterium is a clone of its parent. And they’ve evolved just fine. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-horse-is-still-evolving/699415.md?page=2)