# The House Progressive Caucus is full of traitors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715 "2022-10-24T20:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/141 "2022-10-29T05:20:35Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Compare this side by side with the Progressive Caucus letter. So @dalej42 believes he is able to read between the lines of the progressive letter, and where it says “Putin is bad and we should take Ukraine’s side against him,” he believes he can perceive a coded intent where the letter _really_ wants us to abandon Ukraine to Putin’s ambitions. Now, here is a piece of video made by Trump flunkies which _actually says,_ out loud and with no coded language, “we should stop helping Ukraine,” full stop. So what do you think, @dalej42? Is the cohort of Trump flunkies full of traitors? This is a direct fucking question. Yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/142 "2022-10-29T05:29:16Z")
I expect… ![](https://media4.giphy.com/media/uLy4Bo680hZxm/200.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/143 "2022-10-29T07:23:28Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > we’ll have some real pro-Putin, anti-Ukraine stuff in this thread at last. Are you paging Kedikat? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/144 "2022-10-29T10:58:06Z")
And if so, could you not? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/145 "2022-10-29T11:35:44Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Is the cohort of Trump flunkies full of traitors? The answer is yes obviously, but not because of this. Or at least this doesn’t crack the Hot 100 list of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/146 "2022-10-29T12:43:23Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > So what do you think, @dalej42? Is the cohort of Trump flunkies full of traitors? This is a direct fucking question. Yes or no. Do you have a brown paper bag handy? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/147 "2022-10-29T12:53:59Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > But what happens when the government starts making military decisions based on those lies? When every department–whether military, intelligence, diplomatic, economic, or otherwise–only provides upstream feedback consistent with the party line? Yeah, but at some point, no matter how steeped they are in their own propaganda, they are going to realize that they haven’t actually managed to conquer Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/148 "2022-10-29T20:23:34Z")
This thread is like reading bizzarro world. Biden is doing, and has been doing, everything 100% correct in backing Ukraine. He does not need a course-correction. And that’s what that letter was. Why else write it? And for god’s sake, send it? Now??? The signatories felt the need to urge Biden to negotiate with Putin. Negotiate with a narcissistic autocrat? Haven’t the last 4-6 years taught anyone a lesson about that? You don’t offer to negotiate with a narcissist terrorist thug who will never admit wrong or concede _anything_. And to do what? Negotiate with Putin over what should be the outcome for Ukraine? Where the hell would we get off negotiating on behalf of another country? _If_ were were to do that, it should only be in response to Ukraine asking us to step in. Again, Biden has been 100% correct here. He’s not so dumb as to go into talks with Putin. What could be the outcome of that? “Ok, we’ll let you keep the eastern provinces if you’ll stop”? Is that what Ukraine wants? Any student of history can see the folly in this approach. Any negotiating we would do should be back channel, out of the public eye, and follow the lead of Ukraine. That’s why this letter was so bad. At least the progressives that wrote/signed it had sense enough to disavow it. But most folks here not only not disavow it, but double down on how innocuous it supposedly was. I swear, if this was any other message board or comment section, I’d conclude this thread was infiltrated with Russian trolls. I’m aware enough to realize that’s not the case. The only other explanation I can come up with is… “useful idiots.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/149 "2022-10-29T20:24:28Z")
What does any of this have to do with the actual words in the actual letter? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/150 "2022-10-29T20:34:10Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > The signatories felt the need to urge Biden to negotiate with Putin. Negotiate with a narcissistic autocrat? Haven’t the last 4-6 years taught anyone a lesson about that? You don’t offer to negotiate with a narcissist terrorist thug who will never admit wrong or concede _anything_. You don’t negotiate peace with friends and allies, you negotiate peace with enemies. If you refuse to negotiate peace with people because they are your enemies, then war is never-ending. > [@divemaster](#): > > Where the hell would we get off negotiating on behalf of another country? _If_ were were to do that, it should only be in response to Ukraine asking us to step in. We _have_ stepped in, and Ukraine seems to be benefiting from us doing so. They didn’t build those missile systems that are driving the Russians back. But how _can_ Ukraine negotiate? They aren’t in a position to do so, _we_ are. We have leverage that they do not. Without us at the table advocating for Ukraine, they have nothing to offer to end the peace. It sounds like you want to leave Ukraine to its own devices to make its own way and negotiate on its own. I don’t know why you want Ukraine to be conquered by Russia, but that’s the result of what you are demanding here. > [@divemaster](#): > > I swear, if this was any other message board or comment section, I’d conclude this thread was infiltrated with Russian trolls. Perhaps when someone is surprised like you are, the problem is that you have misunderstood something, not that people are all acting entirely different than you would have expected. > [@divemaster](#): > > “useful idiots.” Right, the people who actually read the letter and understood its context are the idiots. I’d say that the people that have jumped on the outrage wagon and simply made shit up to complain about, as you just did, are useless morons. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/151 "2022-10-29T20:47:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, but at some point, no matter how steeped they are in their own propaganda, they are going to realize that they haven’t actually managed to conquer Ukraine. That snap back to reality can be a hell of a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/152 "2022-10-29T21:42:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t negotiate peace with friends and allies, you negotiate peace with enemies. If you refuse to negotiate peace with people because they are your enemies, then war is never-ending. Whether it is desirable to enter negotiations depends on, amongst other things, your strength, the enemy’s strength, and the enemy’s trustworthiness. The latter two are extremely low. Russia is weak and will not adhere to a peace agreement. And since any further fighting will mostly damage Ukraine, it is up to them to decide if they are hurting enough to desire negotiations despite those factors. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/153 "2022-10-29T21:47:00Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Whether it is desirable to enter negotiations depends on, amongst other things, your strength, the enemy’s strength, and the enemy’s trustworthiness. The latter two are extremely low. Russia is weak and will not adhere to a peace agreement. Well, the other option is that Ukraine conquers Russia. Anything else requires some sort of peaceful resolution that will only come about through diplomacy. Now, while I’d be willing to back Ukraine if they chose to march on Moscow, I don’t know if that’s what they actually want to do. > [@Ludovic](#): > > And since any further fighting will mostly damage Ukraine, it is up to them to decide if they are hurting enough to desire negotiations despite those factors. Are you saying that they should negotiate on their own, without the USA and other Western powers at the table? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/154 "2022-10-29T21:48:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you saying that they should negotiate on their own, without the USA and other Western powers at the table? I’d say others should be at the table only if Ukraine asks for them to be. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/155 "2022-10-29T22:05:49Z")
And what negotiating power do you think that Ukraine has without the USA backing them? I’m glad we are backing them, but the reason that they are fending off Russia isn’t just because of their plucky resolve, it’s because of the billions of dollars of military hardware we are shipping them. We _are_ at the table, and will be part of any negotiations for peace. The moment we leave the table, Russia wins. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/156 "2022-10-29T22:12:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And what negotiating power do you think that Ukraine has without the USA backing them? That’s a side issue. The US is backing Ukraine because a.) it is the morally correct thing to do and b.) it also happens to be smart realpolitik. US and European support has enabled Ukraine to survive so far semi-intact and that continued backing does indeed give Ukraine far more leverage than they would otherwise have. But said leverage should be Ukraine’s to use at their own discretion and theirs alone. If they want the U.S. there at the table, they can of course say so. If they don’t - the US should step back from the table but continue to back Ukraine materially to the hilt to give Ukraine the leverage they need to negotiate on their own if that is what Ukraine prefers. Anything otherwise would a quid pro quo from the US I’d find distasteful - “we’re giving you arms therefore we get a say in what you negotiate about your own country’s future.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/157 "2022-10-29T23:35:21Z")
We are providing more than weapons to Ukraine in order to support them. We also have sanctions against Russia that is damaging their economy, which both hopefully helps turn the people against the warmongers in charge, and decreases their ability to wage war. Are the sanctions that we can lift against Russia if it ceases hostilities and returns the land it has assaulted (including Crimea) something that Ukraine gets to negotiate with? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/158 "2022-10-29T23:51:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are the sanctions that we can lift against Russia if it ceases hostilities and returns the land it has assaulted (including Crimea) something that Ukraine gets to negotiate with? It’s unnecessary - it’s already tacitly there. There are sanctions because Russia started a war. The war ends, eventually so do the sanctions. Probably much sooner than later. Ukraine shouldn’t use it as an explicit bargaining chip per se, because it is not their decision to make. But Russia knows the score. Russian fuel is in serious demand - the second the war ends parts of Europe will be very shortly scrambling all over themselves (oh, so genteelly) to make new deals. Russia started a war that has caused an economic logjam. End the war, they open the way to clearing the logjam. Ukraine doesn’t need to use this as a cudgel or bargaining chip, because it is already baked in to any negotiation. ETA: I mean, there are many countries sanctioning Russia. Do they all get a seat at the table? Japan? San Marino? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/159 "2022-10-30T00:02:52Z")
There were sanctions _before_ Russia started the war. We sanctioned them for a number of things that had nothing to do with Ukraine. If Russia ceases hostilities and leaves Ukraine, that also doesn’t mean that we should automatically lift the sanctions imposed for their invasion. We _may_ want to keep some in place for a time as punishment for their actions. So, we have a lot going on here. We can offer to drop some or all of the sanctions that were imposed because of the war, and we can also sweeten the pot by offering to drop others that have to do with other things. We could offer to trade back prisoners or spies that we have in custody. We could even negotiate nuclear missile reductions and placement if that seem appropriate. These are just some of the things that _we_ bring to the table, and while we may (and should) back Ukraine by offering these, they are not Ukraine’s to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715/160 "2022-10-30T00:06:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > These are just some of the things that _we_ bring to the table, and while we may (and should) back Ukraine by offering these, they are not Ukraine’s to offer. Agreed. As I said I don’t really have a problem with Ukraine wanting the US (or EU or whoever) to participate in negotiations. But it has to be their choice, not ours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-house-progressive-caucus-is-full-of-traitors/973715.md?page=9)