# The human population becomes unsustainable - is forcing a woman to have an abortion acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480 "2009-09-09T21:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/1 "2009-09-09T21:35:09Z")
See Also > **[The human race nears extinction--is forcing a woman to give birth acceptable?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530494)** > > In another thread that I didn’t want to hijack too badly, Bryan Ekers posted: A few people objected to that, and I figured I’d take it to another thread. My opinion was that it’s not worth it. If the human race has to rely on something this... In an alternative scenario: The world’s population in 2050 is estimated to be over 9 Billion people. Given the limited number of resources available (food, water, energy, space,etc), it’s not unrealistic that at some level, the population will exceed a sustainable amount, causing a population crash that could potentially wipe out the human race. If the human race is on the verge of a population crash, would it be acceptable to force women to have an abortion? What about forced usage of birth control? Sterilization? To mirror the other OP, I think this would be utterly barbaric. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/2 "2009-09-09T22:11:53Z")
I want to note that being pro-choice isn’t the same as being anti-life - we want the option to choose, not to _force_ anyone to get abortions. So pro-choicers will _agree_ that this idea is abhorrent and reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/3 "2009-09-09T22:25:15Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > See Also > [The human race nears extinction--is forcing a woman to give birth acceptable? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530494) > > In an alternative scenario: > > The world’s population in 2050 is estimated to be over 9 Billion people. Given the limited number of resources available (food, water, energy, space,etc), it’s not unrealistic that at some level, the population will exceed a sustainable amount, causing a population crash that could potentially wipe out the human race. If the human race is on the verge of a population crash, would it be acceptable to force women to have an abortion? What about forced usage of birth control? Sterilization? > > To mirror the other OP, I think this would be utterly barbaric. Nature takes care of its own. Any population that outgrows its resources will die off to a sustainable level, most often thru lack of interest in sex. Congress has nothing to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/4 "2009-09-09T23:14:26Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Nature takes care of its own. Any population that outgrows its resources will die off to a sustainable level, most often thru lack of interest in sex. Congress has nothing to say about it. Nature fuckin’ sucks, man. Never ever equate nature with moral. (Don’t get me wrong: nature is amazing. But I’d never want a raven, or a chanterelle, or a malaria parasite, or a tsunami, to run my moral code). Assume no other solution presents itself, it comes down to this: does Bob’s right to reproduce outweigh Alice’s right to eat? I don’t think it does. Reproduction is a major life function, absolutely–but so is eating. And you can accomplish other life goals without reproducing, but you can’t accomplish any other goals without eating. If I’m forced to choose, Bob gets a vasectomy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/5 "2009-09-09T23:18:31Z")
War over the critically-limited resources will take care of it more efficiently than mandatory abortions. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/6 "2009-09-09T23:19:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Assume no other solution presents itself, it comes down to this: does Bob’s right to reproduce outweigh Alice’s right to eat? > > I don’t think it does. Reproduction is a major life function, absolutely–but so is eating. And you can accomplish other life goals without reproducing, but you can’t accomplish any other goals without eating. If I’m forced to choose, Bob gets a vasectomy. Yes, but does Bob’s right to reproduce with Alice outweigh Alice’s right to eat Bob? If we start doing reproduction mantis-style, then we’ll reproduce at below replacement rate, and everything will be hunky-dory! ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/7 "2009-09-09T23:25:11Z")
Isn’t China’s “one child” policy somewhat similar to what’s proposed in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/8 "2009-09-09T23:26:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > War over the critically-limited resources will take care of it more efficiently than mandatory abortions. Wish I’d said that. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/9 "2009-09-09T23:30:19Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Isn’t China’s “one child” policy somewhat similar to what’s proposed in the OP? How is it enforced? It’s one thing to do things like deny additional welfare or support for extra children, and another to impose a punitive ‘extra child’ tax, and it’s another to throw people in jail, and another to force people to get abortions, and another to chop up the entire offending family with a chainsaw. Not all of these approaches are equally bad, so before I judge how bad China’s plan is, I need to know what they’re doing. ETA: **Bryan** is right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/10 "2009-09-09T23:34:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > War over the critically-limited resources will take care of it more efficiently than mandatory abortions. Oh, well, if it’s all about efficiency, let’s go nukes. But if we’re concerned about something more than efficiency, let’s talk. **begbert** , I’m sure the mantis-comment was funny in your head, but I confess I have no idea how it relates to what I posted. Are you sure you meant to quote me? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/11 "2009-09-09T23:45:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **begbert** , I’m sure the mantis-comment was funny in your head, but I confess I have no idea how it relates to what I posted. Are you sure you meant to quote me? I read “does Bob’s right to reproduce outweigh Alice’s right to eat?” and my mind filled in the blanks. My mind has issues. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/12 "2009-09-09T23:51:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, well, if it’s all about efficiency, let’s go nukes. > > But if we’re concerned about something more than efficiency, let’s talk. > … There is a numerically very small minority which controls the planet’s resources including its labor. That’s more than efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/13 "2009-09-09T23:52:52Z")
No to forced abortion, for both ethical and practical reasons. If the government is going to limit population growth the forced abortions would be one of the least efficient ways to do so. I would hope that the birth rate could be controlled not by force but through methods like free and easy access to contraceptives and tax breaks for people without children or people who volunteer for sterilization. I can imagine extreme situations where I would agree with mandatory contraceptive use, although I’m uncomfortable with the idea. I’d have a bigger problem with mandatory sterilization. This wasn’t mentioned in the OP, but I think I would be okay with voluntary euthanasia…although it’s disturbing to think of the “suicide solution” actually being promoted to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/14 "2009-09-09T23:59:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, well, if it’s all about efficiency, let’s go nukes. > > But if we’re concerned about something more than efficiency, let’s talk. I don’t think the issues are that easily separated. If overpopulation is making the situation as desperate as the OP suggests (personally, I don’t think a mere nine billion will do it; make it twenty billion) far more violent options than mandatory abortions will come into play. Besides, it won’t be a likely issue because we assume the nine billion are unsustainable because they all want a mass-consumption western-style standard of living and everywhere that happens, birth rates plunge anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/15 "2009-09-10T00:05:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t think the issues are that easily separated. If overpopulation is making the situation as desperate as the OP suggests (personally, I don’t think a mere nine billion will do it; make it twenty billion) far more violent options than mandatory abortions will come into play. You’re fighting the hypothetical. Which is probably wise: these threads all have kind of dumbshit hypotheticals, unfortunately. This one is less dumb than the others, however, since it closely matches what’s happening in China; and there, it’s been mandatory abortions, and not starvation/war/disease, that’s changed population dynamics, which seems to make your quote above incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/16 "2009-09-10T00:21:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t think the issues are that easily separated. If overpopulation is making the situation as desperate as the OP suggests (personally, I don’t think a mere nine billion will do it; make it twenty billion) far more violent options than mandatory abortions will come into play. > > Besides, it won’t be a likely issue because we assume the nine billion are unsustainable because they all want a mass-consumption western-style standard of living and everywhere that happens, birth rates plunge anyway. Let’s say 9 billion, and instead of 2050, today, while we reduce our carbon footprint. If the world’s wealth and resources are equitably distributed and we all live more simply, no problem. Let me never mistake a clear view for a short journey. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/17 "2009-09-10T00:39:44Z")
I think that women’s reproductive rights could be coerced, bribed, whatever, but not forced. One thought here, though. With this OP, I think fairness is at the end of the day. We can also coerce, bribe, and whatever males to get vasectomies, women hysterectomies, and limit the amount of children people can RAISE. This will be controversial, but I honestly think that limiting each person to one child (or less), is rational in this situation. If a person, say a male, is proven to have more than a replacement, then that “replacement” should be given/assigned to someone else (male or female), who maybe took the incentives to sterilize themselves or just hasn’t had a child yet. The non-compliant multi-child producer should be SEVERELY legally and financially punished, and offered the option of sterilization to avoid the fine/jail time/whatever. The person who receives the child, if they haven’t had a child yet to replace themselves, must immediately submit to incentivized sterilization, and the child is registered as their legal issue. The outcome of the child is not up for negotiation. If “your” child dies at age ten, you may not have another. You had yours. The only exception I can see for the “you’re stuck if your kid dies” is if the child has a fatal congenital deformity that is not ancestry-linked. (Hemophiliacs run in families, so being a hemophiliac wouldn’t allow you a “second chance”, but “random gene 4458799 went wrong and there’s no way it’s a family genetics link” might allow you, after a lengthy and expensive appeals process, to obtain another replacement.) Now, if the population swells to 20 billion, as Bryan Ekers suggests, then I don’t think abortion is going to be an issue, keeping people from killing people is going to be the issue. Pregnant women may just have to hide in fear of their lives, at that point, because they’re “endangering everyone” by increasing the population. I’m not sure how I feel about that one. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/18 "2009-09-10T00:43:23Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > The world’s population in 2050 is estimated to be over 9 Billion people. Given the limited number of resources available (food, water, energy, space,etc), it’s not unrealistic that at some level, the population will exceed a sustainable amount, causing a population crash that could potentially wipe out the human race. I entirely agree with you that answer is ‘no’. However, I’m also puzzled about the question. How can having a population that’s too large lead to having a “population crash” that brings the population to exactly zero? Isn’t that like saying that excessive rainfall lead to a drought? Resoruces may be limited (though we have plenty of excess food, water, energy, and space at the moment) but resources will always _exist_. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/19 "2009-09-10T00:45:42Z")
Stop being such Ehrlich type chicken littles folks. The world is not overpopulated and won’t be unless we have twenty billion people or something. We have enough resources and it’s that Europe and East Asia’s population is DECLINING that’s the big problem. Also if we terraform Mars our population problems will be solved. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/20 "2009-09-10T01:00:30Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Stop being such Ehrlich type chicken littles folks. The world is not overpopulated and won’t be unless we have twenty billion people or something. We have enough resources and it’s that Europe and East Asia’s population is DECLINING that’s the big problem. Also if we terraform Mars our population problems will be solved. We are already populous enough to damage the planet; its carrying capacity is dropping not rising. And unless someone invents Stargates there’s no way we could get enough people off planet to make a difference in terms of population. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480.md?page=2)