# The human population becomes unsustainable - is forcing a woman to have an abortion acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480 "2009-09-09T21:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/21 "2009-09-10T01:11:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Stop being such Ehrlich type chicken littles folks. The world is not overpopulated and won’t be unless we have twenty billion people or something. We have enough resources and it’s that Europe and East Asia’s population is DECLINING that’s the big problem. Also if we terraform Mars our population problems will be solved. Yeah! FIGHT that hypothetical! You’ll beat it yet! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/22 "2009-09-10T01:13:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We are already populous enough to damage the planet; its carrying capacity is dropping not rising. And unless someone invents Stargates there’s no way we could get enough people off planet to make a difference in terms of population. Evidence, evidence for the above. It’s not that there’s not enough food but that it’s not being distributed properly. The world can feed itself two times over if we had the proper resources. As for space we can TERRAFORM MARS. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/23 "2009-09-10T01:18:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Evidence, evidence for the above. It’s not that there’s not enough food but that it’s not being distributed properly. The world can feed itself two times over if we had the proper resources. Global warming, mass extinction, topsoil loss, acid rain, the ozone hole etc. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for space we can TERRAFORM MARS. But we can’t get very many people there. That would be useful for spreading humanity, but not for getting rid of excess population. Even if Mars was terraformed instantly tomorrow it would make no difference as far as overpopulation goes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/24 "2009-09-10T01:28:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Global warming Solvable problem, being solved. > [@](#): > > , mass extinction, Excessive conservation extinction rates declining. > [@](#): > > topsoil loss, acid rain, the ozone hole etc. Being fixed, better then the excesses of the 80s and 90s. > [@](#): > > But we can’t get very many people there. That would be useful for spreading humanity, but not for getting rid of excess population. Even if Mars was terraformed instantly tomorrow it would make no difference as far as overpopulation goes. Obviously techonology will improve and abilities to get people to Mars will improve. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/25 "2009-09-10T02:10:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Solvable problem, being solved. A problem probably too late to solve largely being ignored. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Excessive conservation extinction rates declining. We’ve already done vast damage and haven’t stopped. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Obviously techonology will improve and abilities to get people to Mars will improve. But not by enough to make any difference on this kind of scale. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/26 "2009-09-10T02:51:22Z")
What was happening on the way to 9 million? Lack of education and access to free and safe contraception (incluing abortion) across the world? You know, this nightmare scenario can probably be prevented. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/27 "2009-09-10T02:59:08Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > See Also > [The human race nears extinction--is forcing a woman to give birth acceptable? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530494) > > In an alternative scenario: > > The world’s population in 2050 is estimated to be over 9 Billion people. Given the limited number of resources available (food, water, energy, space,etc), it’s not unrealistic that at some level, the population will exceed a sustainable amount, causing a population crash that could potentially wipe out the human race. If the human race is on the verge of a population crash, would it be acceptable to force women to have an abortion? What about forced usage of birth control? Sterilization? > > To mirror the other OP, I think this would be utterly barbaric. I’ve never seen someone actually vote _for_ malnutrition, starvation and death before. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/28 "2009-09-10T05:21:32Z")
To the OP’s question. Yes. That’s implied by “unsustainable.” ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/29 "2009-09-10T14:10:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Isn’t that like saying that excessive rainfall lead to a drought? No, it’s more similar to too much rainfall can lead to the same problem as drought: non-arable land ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/30 "2009-09-10T15:50:37Z")
I would also hold fast to my views in the other topic: It is more wrong to force an abortion on a woman. With billions of people, one more isn’t going to make that much of a difference, and no one woman or group of woman can be held responsible for overpopulation. However, an abortion is an intimate and personal procedure, so that we’d be trying to defend her suffering in order to justify relieving, by some miniscule amount, the suffering of faceless others. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/31 "2009-09-10T23:45:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A problem probably too late to solve largely being ignored. Uh, excuse me? Where have you been in the last ten years with the Incovenient Truth. Also most of Global Warming is natural, humans may have contributed to it but it isn’t mostly or even mainly due to us. > [@](#): > > We’ve already done vast damage and haven’t stopped. Rate of extinction is going down, as you can see several species have been taken off the Endangered Species List. > [@](#): > > But not by enough to make any difference on this kind of scale. Who knows in fifty years or eighty years it will work. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/32 "2009-09-10T23:55:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Who knows in fifty years or eighty years it will work. To make a dent in the population, you have to be removing percentages of the population at a respectable rate. So if the population is in the billions, then exporting say ten million people a year won’t even make a dent. You have to export them at a rate which exceeds the birthrate, preferably by a respectable margin, which seems grossly implausible without resorting to fantasy techology - or limiting the birthrate enough that with a little more effort you can solve the problem _without_ the exportation. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/33 "2009-09-11T00:08:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > To make a dent in the population, you have to be removing percentages of the population at a respectable rate. So if the population is in the billions, then exporting say ten million people a year won’t even make a dent. You have to export them at a rate which exceeds the birthrate, preferably by a respectable margin, which seems grossly implausible without resorting to fantasy techology - or limiting the birthrate enough that with a little more effort you can solve the problem _without_ the exportation. Birth rate will slow down and possibly even crash even in the Third World. Compare the birth rates in any country from forty years ago to to-day. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/34 "2009-09-11T00:08:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Uh, excuse me? Where have you been in the last ten years with the Incovenient Truth. Also most of Global Warming is natural, humans may have contributed to it but it isn’t mostly or even mainly due to us. There’s no reason to think that beyond right wing lies. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Who knows in fifty years or eighty years it will work. There’s no reason to think that it will EVER be practical. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/35 "2009-09-11T01:02:36Z")
The current growth rate of human population is 1.3% a year. That’s about 78 million people a year, or 2.5 per second. Even if we had a magical doorway that led straight from Earth to Mars, you’d have a hard time getting that many people through that quickly. And I can guarantee that we’re not going to get any sort of space transportation technology that’s anywhere near that efficient any time in the next century. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/36 "2009-09-11T01:03:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The current growth rate of human population is 1.3% a year. That’s about 78 million people a year, or 2.5 per second. Even if we had a magical doorway that led straight from Earth to Mars, you’d have a hard time getting that many people through that quickly. And I can guarantee that we’re not going to get any sort of space transportation technology that’s anywhere near that efficient any time in the next century. What I’m saying is that the birth rate will decline to something of a fraction of your number by mid-century. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/37 "2009-09-11T10:55:53Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > See Also > [The human race nears extinction--is forcing a woman to give birth acceptable? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=530494) > > In an alternative scenario: > > The world’s population in 2050 is estimated to be over 9 Billion people. Given the limited number of resources available (food, water, energy, space,etc), it’s not unrealistic that at some level, the population will exceed a sustainable amount, causing a population crash that could potentially wipe out the human race. If the human race is on the verge of a population crash, would it be acceptable to force women to have an abortion? What about forced usage of birth control? Sterilization? > > To mirror the other OP, I think this would be utterly barbaric. I am for mandatory birth control, and any reproduction above replacement [1 kid per person, 2 per couple] requires licensing and to actually have kids requires passing a basic educational course in childrearing [basic nutrition, basic first aid, basic parenting skills.] I am actually pro mandatory birth control for all females above menarch and under 21. I do not think abortion is an acceptable form of birth control, other than for rapes, and failed birth control [i had 3 pregnancies, one on the pill, one on the pill and using a rubber and one over 10 years after a tubal ligation. Fertility was me … _sigh_] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/38 "2009-09-11T16:55:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What I’m saying is that the birth rate will decline to something of a fraction of your number by mid-century. Right - and if you find that that facilitates an “exportation” solution to the population problem, then it will be because the reduced population growth _itself_ solved the population problem, without the exportation effort having significant effect. Seriously, what you’re describing here is trying to keep a bathtub from overfilling by bailing it with a thimble. Saying “But the water filling it is going to turn off in a bit, so my thimble will have saved the day!” is not exactly granting credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/39 "2009-09-12T00:05:26Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I am for mandatory birth control, and any reproduction above replacement [1 kid per person, 2 per couple] requires licensing and to actually have kids requires passing a basic educational course in childrearing [basic nutrition, basic first aid, basic parenting skills.] I am actually pro mandatory birth control for all females above menarch and under 21. I do not think abortion is an acceptable form of birth control, other than for rapes, and failed birth control [i had 3 pregnancies, one on the pill, one on the pill and using a rubber and one over 10 years after a tubal ligation. Fertility was me … _sigh_] I absolutely agree with you about most of this. However, I think that even replacement reproduction should require a license. If the world is facing a population crisis because of overpopulation, no one should be licensed for an additional child. Every person should be permitted a singular heir, and that’s it. “Couples” should not enter into it. Women should be permitted to contract to birth heirs for others, (as should men, if a woman wants genetic material, as well), but as in surrogacy, those children will never belong to the genetic donator. So a wife could contract with her husband to produce his heir, and a husband could contract so with his wife, but _his_ baby is _his_, and _her_ baby is _hers_, regardless of gender. (A side effect of this is simplification of the divorce/child custody argument.) I also think that despite agreeing with you in personal belief about abortion, I do not think I should be permitted to decide when someone else can make that decision, or for what reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480/40 "2009-09-13T01:18:45Z")
No, absolutely not. Just as I am pro-choice when it comes to choosing abortion, I’m the same when it comes to NOT choosing an abortion. You don’t have the right to force me to stay pregnant, or to terminate my pregnancy. MY body, MY choice. A MUCH better program of birth control, absolutely. But forcing women to have abortions – no fucking way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-population-becomes-unsustainable-is-forcing-a-woman-to-have-an-abortion-acceptable/509480.md?page=3)