# The human race nears extinction--is forcing a woman to give birth acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671 "2009-09-02T20:01:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/261 "2009-09-09T22:26:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The hypothetical was clearly intended to push pro-choicers into a position of either admitting that their morality is situational, or forcing them to defend the “absurd”\*. (Presumably situational morality is something bad.) Maybe that’s why I’m so willing to admit my morality is situational: I think the alternative to situational morality is idiotic morality. Every real moral dilemma appears in a situation, not in an abstract theory; if your morality can’t deal with that, then it’s a suck-ass morality. And while I think that physical autonomy is a good thing, I don’t think it’s the only good thing; and I don’t even think reproductive autonomy is the most important subset of physical autonomy. I’d much rather be castrated than die of starvation, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/262 "2009-09-09T22:29:44Z")
\*\*The rights of the individual are paramount. It is never acceptable to force a woman to carry a child to term. \*\* If I get knocked up, it’s entirely my decision to kill or give birth to my baby. I don’t give a crap what you call it, baby, fetus, that little thing in my uterus that could grow up and be human - it’s my call whether or not to birth to my child. I don’t have contempt for humanity, I daresay I’m quite fond of humanity but I don’t understand why breeding the next generation is a priority. If the near-zero birth rate scares people bad enough that they decide to revoke my rights, I’m not going anywhere near a penis. To be fair, I’m a lesbian and I’m probably not going there anyway but still… Props to \*\*Freudian Slit \*\* for the creepy hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/263 "2009-09-09T22:36:34Z")
Seriously, what’s the deal with perpetuating humanity? I’m not hand-waving the seriousness of human extinction, I just don’t understand how the future of the UNBORN trumps the rights of women. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/264 "2009-09-09T22:42:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Maybe that’s why I’m so willing to admit my morality is situational: I think the alternative to situational morality is idiotic morality. Every real moral dilemma appears in a situation, not in an abstract theory; if your morality can’t deal with that, then it’s a suck-ass morality. > > And while I think that physical autonomy is a good thing, I don’t think it’s the only good thing; and I don’t even think reproductive autonomy is the most important subset of physical autonomy. I’d much rather be castrated than die of starvation, for example. I agree that morality is situational (what do you expect; I’m an atheist). However I’m ill-inclined to say what the OP wanted to hear :D, so I prefer to attack the hypothetical and/or subvert the absurdity of the premise of humanity’s end being bad. And honestly I’m not sure there isn’t a hypothetical situation where abortion should be banned. I can’t _think_ of one (humanity dying doesn’t cut it for me), but maybe there is one. But even so - so what? Unless that situation actually _occurs_, I’m still pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/265 "2009-09-09T22:55:12Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Seriously, what’s the deal with perpetuating humanity? I’m not hand-waving the seriousness of human extinction, I just don’t understand how the future of the UNBORN trumps the rights of women. Seriously, what’s the deal with people not reading the thread? If you’ve read the whole thread and can’t find the answer to this question, I’ll point you to the appropriate post; but it sure looks like you’re posting without reading the thread, which is really annoying. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/266 "2009-09-09T23:00:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Seriously, what’s the deal with people not reading the thread? If you’ve read the whole thread and can’t find the answer to this question, I’ll point you to the appropriate post; but it sure looks like you’re posting without reading the thread, which is really annoying. I dunno about him, but I’ve read the thread, and I still don’t know what the deal with perpetuating humanity is. Is it that business about the elderly all starving to death because they’re the last generation? It’s kind of hard to take that seriously as a reason to start rape camps (presuming, for any arbitrary undefined hypothetical, that that’s what it takes). It’s only a reason to do _something_. In a world of honorable people, I could manufacture cyanide pills and give them away for free, to allow everyone to go peacefully into the great dark night when they felt their circumstances spiraling inevitably downward into misery. Clearly that’s not an _optimal_ state of things, of course, but as compared to _rape camps_ my situational morality thinks it looks better and better. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/267 "2009-09-09T23:08:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I dunno about him, but I’ve read the thread, and I still don’t know what the deal with perpetuating humanity is. > > Is it that business about the elderly all starving to death because they’re the last generation? It’s kind of hard to take that seriously as a reason to start rape camps (presuming, for any arbitrary undefined hypothetical, that that’s what it takes). Of COURSE it’s that business about the elderly–i.e., the women who didn’t get pregnant when they could, and the men of their same generation, who were therefore the last generation–dying of starvation, disease, riots, etc. What else? And again, the scenario isn’t define well enough to debate clearly. Nobody has yet proposed a scenario in which rape camps are the only alternative to this mass horrific death of the people who could get pregnant, plus the males of their generation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/268 "2009-09-09T23:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Some mother hawks and owls are practical optimists, not only halving their brood when necessary but also eating them. A regular modest disposal. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/269 "2009-09-09T23:16:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Of COURSE it’s that business about the elderly–i.e., the women who didn’t get pregnant when they could, and the men of their same generation, who were therefore the last generation–dying of starvation, disease, riots, etc. What else? > > And again, the scenario isn’t define well enough to debate clearly. Nobody has yet proposed a scenario in which rape camps are the only alternative to this mass horrific death of the people who could get pregnant, plus the males of their generation. Well, uh, right. Like I strongly implied in the bit of my post you _didn’t_ quote, there is no reason to believe that the hypothetical would compel rape camps or even denying abortions, because it’s _impossible_ to make a hypothetical where people are unable to kill themselves as opposed to carrying out the “atrocities” in question. (That was in scare quotes because one man’s atrocity is another’s moral duty). So, it’s quite impossible to propose a scenario in which rape camps are the only alternative to this mass horrific death of the people who could get pregnant, plus the males of their generation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/270 "2009-09-09T23:36:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, uh, right. Like I strongly implied in the bit of my post you _didn’t_ quote, there is no reason to believe that the hypothetical would compel rape camps or even denying abortions. Er, no. You mentioned rape camps. You didn’t mention denying abortions. Requiring mass suicide (or mass starvation) as the only alternative to rape camps is defensible. Requiring mass suicide (or mass starvation) as the only alternative to denying abortions is indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/271 "2009-09-09T23:48:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Er, no. You mentioned rape camps. You didn’t mention denying abortions. > > Requiring mass suicide (or mass starvation) as the only alternative to rape camps is defensible. > > Requiring mass suicide (or mass starvation) as the only alternative to denying abortions is indefensible. Oh, nonsense. People have different moralities, and quite _clearly_ some people think that forcing women to do it to themselves with coathangers on the sly is a level of barbarism below which a right thinking human would avoid inflicting on others at all costs. Just because your morality isn’t calibrated that way doesn’t mean that we can’t _hypothesize_ that occuring. Heck, the hypothetical has all women aborting compulsively. If we can twiddle their impulses that much then anything goes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/272 "2009-09-10T00:03:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Oh, nonsense. People have different moralities, and quite _clearly_ some people think that forcing women to do it to themselves with coathangers on the sly is a level of barbarism below which a right thinking human would avoid inflicting on others at all costs. I may have chosen words poorly. “Defensible” meant, there, that I could understand and appreciate that point of view. “Indefensible” means that I think it’s misguided and awful. And it’s obnoxious to suggest that anyone is forcing women to “do it to themselves with coathangers.” That’s really silly. The question is this: given some unnamed hypothetical that’s preventing a woman from voluntarily having a baby, is it better to condemn that woman to involuntarily having a baby, or to condemn that woman and an innocent man to either suicide or horrific death by starvation? Without knowing the hypothetical, it’s hard to answer the question for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/273 "2009-09-10T00:15:03Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Seriously, what’s the deal with perpetuating humanity? I’m not hand-waving the seriousness of human extinction, I just don’t understand how the future of the UNBORN trumps the rights of women. Right of fetus to live\>Right of women to convenience ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/274 "2009-09-10T00:16:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I may have chosen words poorly. “Defensible” meant, there, that I could understand and appreciate that point of view. “Indefensible” means that I think it’s misguided and awful. > > And it’s obnoxious to suggest that anyone is forcing women to “do it to themselves with coathangers.” That’s really silly. Bwah? You think it’s silly to suggest that women who want abortions have been known to go to desperate length to engineer the effect when prevented from getting it professionally done? Well, if you say so. I’d heard that it had been known to happen in real life. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The question is this: given some unnamed hypothetical that’s preventing a woman from voluntarily having a baby, is it better to condemn that woman to involuntarily having a baby, or to condemn that woman and an innocent man to either suicide or horrific death by starvation? > > Without knowing the hypothetical, it’s hard to answer the question for sure. “Preventing a woman from voluntarily having a baby”? That’s a…unique…turn of phrase. I thought the hypothetical was “every pregnant woman wants to have an abortion”. Admittedly, this leaves open the question of how _badly_ they want an abortion, and what they would be willing to do to curcumvent any proscriptions on them (coathangers, eschewing sex entirely, etcetera), but I think we know enough not to obfuscate the word “abortion” completely out of the discussion. And quite _demonstrably_, in this thread, there are people who feel that it would be better to die childless than to force another person not to get an abortion/lock them up away from coathangers/rape them until pregnant/etcetera. Apparently _regardless_ of the hypothetical, for these people; banning abortion alone is enough to make any alternative more palatable. Particularly, once you start demonizing anti-choice people it’s quite easy to divide the populace into those who would choose death, and those who deserve to die - so, it’s cyanide in the water for everyone! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/275 "2009-09-10T00:48:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Right of fetus to live\>Right of women to convenience In other words, you regard women as less than an animal. Even a mouse is on a higher moral plane than a mindless lump of cells. And pregnancy is more than an inconvenience; not that you care since women aren’t people in your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/276 "2009-09-10T01:02:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you regard women as less than an animal. Even a mouse is on a higher moral plane than a mindless lump of cells. And pregnancy is more than an inconvenience; not that you care since women aren’t people in your eyes. I do think women are people! According to you I’m some evil mediavel era misogynist. I simply think the fetus should have the right to live. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/277 "2009-09-10T01:08:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Bwah? You think it’s silly to suggest that women who want abortions have been known to go to desperate length to engineer the effect when prevented from getting it professionally done? Well, if you say so. I’d heard that it had been known to happen in real life. Hint: if you can only argue against what I’m saying by changing what I’m saying, you can’t argue against what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/278 "2009-09-10T01:09:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I do think women are people! According to you I’m some evil mediavel era misogynist. I simply think the fetus should have the right to live. A fetus is a mindless _ **thing** _; by subordinating a woman’s freedom to it you are declaring that you regard her as lower than that. And yes, opposing abortion is misogyny; that’s the point of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/279 "2009-09-10T01:14:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A fetus is a mindless _ **thing** _; by subordinating a woman’s freedom to it you are declaring that you regard her as lower than that. And yes, opposing abortion is misogyny; that’s the point of it. A fetus will be a person! As for calling me misogynistic Susan B Anthony was pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671/280 "2009-09-10T01:21:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A fetus will be a person! Many, perhaps most miscarry. And by that logic every wet dream or act of masturbation is mass murder. What matters is what it is, not what it might be. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for calling me misogynistic Susan B Anthony was pro-life. And she was working against the interests of women to be so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-human-race-nears-extinction-is-forcing-a-woman-to-give-birth-acceptable/508671.md?page=15)