# The Hunter Biden Investigation {thread started in 2019}, Hunter Pardoned on December 1, 2024
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [September 28, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964 "2019-09-28T19:54:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 68
### Author:  [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1343 "2024-06-07T20:01:33Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#):
>
> from what I’ve learned over the last few days is that Ol’ Hunter is kind of a Scum-Bag
Agree. But not because of his vices, IMO. It’s due to his shady relationship w/ a China-based energy company, and questionable tax returns.
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### Author:  [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1344 "2024-06-07T20:11:40Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#):
>
> I hear Jimmy John’s are addictive!
Did anybody note if the form had been checked?
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1345 "2024-06-07T20:11:56Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#):
>
> I haven’t been following this too closely, but from what I’ve learned over the last few days is that Ol’ Hunter is kind of a Scum-Bag.
It’s why folks who support Joe Biden aren’t necessarily clamoring to defend him. The left isn’t quite as tribal as the right. The Biden family doesn’t have a cult following.
You can criticize him (and he deserves it and more) while still hoping he gets a fair trial, and you can’t put his sins on Joe either. He’s his own screwup.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1346 "2024-06-07T20:28:34Z")
2 posts were split to a new topic: [New user sees ignorance here on the Dope (about Trump)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-user-sees-ignorance-here-on-the-dope-about-trump/1002612)
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1348 "2024-06-07T20:26:03Z")
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [June 7, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1349 "2024-06-07T20:44:52Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 12 minutes.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1350 "2024-06-08T17:55:36Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> > [@Stratocaster](#):
> >
> > Does anyone know what the logic is for this ruling? Seems to this non-lawyer that once you establish that someone monkeyed with the form for any purpose, that makes all of it suspect. Why would that be off limits?
>
> My WAG is that if the only thing that was changed was something about his passport/ID, it’s irrelevant to the case. If the store owner had checked the “I’m not a drug user” box, I suspect it would be admissible.
To return to this issue, @Joey_P has it exactly right. The gun purchase form that Hunter signed was altered _after the alleged crime_ in ways that had _nothing to do with the alleged crime_.
> [@](#):
>
> A shop employee created the original document when Hunter Biden purchased the firearm in 2018. It lists Biden’s passport as the ID he presented to the shop employee.
>
> Years later, however, a copy was made. The copy included a handwritten note, “DE Vehicle Registration,” on a line left blank for “Supplemental Government Issued Documentation.” Store employees did so in 2021 to rectify a requirement that gun buyers present a form of ID that includes an address, which passports do not.
> **[As Hunter Biden goes to trial on gun charges, here's how his attorneys plan...](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/hunter-biden-trial-gun-charges-attorneys-plan-defend/story?id=110723466)**
>
> President Joe Biden's son Hunter Biden goes on trial Monday on three felony gun charges in what federal prosecutors have characterized as "a simple case."
Whereas if they had monkeyed with the form in a way relevant to the case (I.e. they forged Hunter’s signature, and he’s saying he _did_ mark “yes”; or they changed his answer), that evidence would be admissible.
Judges don’t want cases to go off on tangents. The changing of this form, in the way it has been described, is a tangent in the case.
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> The defense only needs to maintain reasonable doubt. I suspect their argument would be some form of “Gee, how can we believe the testimony of the prosecution’s witnesses, people who altered the very form in evidence?”
This way lies Rudy Giuliani and getting disbarred.
If the defense intends to _present evidence_ that the form was altered in ways relevant to the case, then this _additional_ fact that the form was altered after the alleged crime, in an irrelevant way, becomes probative and likely admissible.
But you have to get to the predicate first. The defense can just play defense (in this case, the Feds didn’t prove that Hunter was lying when he signed the form), but they can’t introduce “what if’s” or “alternative theories” that are unfounded or not based on a good faith belief that they have a factual basis.
So as the defense you’re either going to take the position that this is an ambiguous time in Hunter’s life, and he didn’t technically violate the law, or you are going to have to bring witnesses to demonstrate that this is indeed a big conspiracy. But if you have no reason to think that Hunter didn’t sign the form, you don’t get to imply it to the jury.
Now, having a **good faith belief** is a very low bar. A defense lawyer is entitled to believe their client, even if they just “believe” them. He tells you he wasn’t there; fine, you can argue that the evidence doesn’t prove he was there.
But if he wants to argue that he was at some other particular place? Then I need _some_ evidence before I present that argument : cell phone data, an alibi witness, a transaction. _Something_.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1351 "2024-06-08T18:30:22Z")
I have been educated. My thanks.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1352 "2024-06-08T18:44:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#):
>
> My thanks.
I think a defense attorney can toe the line, which they did here.
You can refer to the form that was introduced, which was that original signed by Hunter.
> [@](#):
>
> Former gun story employee Jason Turner said he wrote Hunter Biden’s vehicle registration number in a box on the form for supplemental information. But on the form shown in court, that box is empty.
>
> “Where is it?” defense attorney Abbe Lowell asked, prompting prosecutors to ask for a sidebar discussion with the judge.
>
> “There’s no such reference,” Lowell said after he resumed questioning Turner.
>
> “There should be,” Turner said.
>
> Lowell also noted that certain information on the form was entered in black ink, while other information was in red ink. Turner said he switched pens while filling out the form.
>
> “How come?” Lowell asked.
>
> Turner said the red ink is easier to see for audit purposes.
> **[The Latest: Witness says he put vehicle registration number on form, defense...](https://www.therepublic.com/2024/06/07/the-latest-witness-says-he-put-vehicle-registration-number-on-form-defense-asks-why-its-missing/)**
>
> WILMINGTON, Del. (AP) — The Latest on Hunter Biden’s federal gun trial (all times local): Former gun story employee Jason Turner said he wrote Hunter Biden’s vehicle registration number in a box on the form for supplemental information. But on the...
The defense is certainly free to argue that the form was casually completed, and wasn’t done precisely according to the instructions.
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1353 "2024-06-08T20:12:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
> >
> > If I needed to get a driver’s license, and the form had a box that said “are you a user of beer?” I would check “no”, because I did not have a beer in my hand
>
> 🤨
>
> Are you a runner? No, as you can see, I am currently at this moment, standing still.
>
> Do you brush your teeth? No, as you can see, I am not currently brushing my teeth.
>
> In what looney-tune land do people answer questions like that?
Well, it’s all very subjective:
“I ran in high school, and even though I don’t really run now, I still consider myself a runner.”
“I ran a 5k last week, but it’s not the sort of thing I do often… I know plenty of people who are real runners, and no, I don’t consider myself a runner.”
“Are you a X” is about self-identity, and is subjective. Any answer will require assumptions on the part of the respondent about the intent of the question, and is open to interpretation.
Even “do you brush your teeth?” can be answered “yes” or “no” in an honest manner given the exact same facts.
These are subjective self-reflections posing as facts.
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### Author:  [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1354 "2024-06-08T21:47:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> If I needed to get a driver’s license, and the form had a box that said “are you a user of beer?” I would check “no”, because I did not have a beer in my hand at that time, and also, I fully intended to go home and pour out my delicious beer from the fridge and pledge to never drink it again.
If I was on the jury, I’d listen to what fellow-jurors said, but my first thought is that you are a beer user.
Also, you might really need a driver’s license, such as to get to a job where there is no public transportation. I doubt that Hunter needed a revolver in that sense.
I googled to find out why Hunter wanted a gun and came up empty.
As a matter of public policy, I do not think people who use cocaine, regardless of whether they intend to go cold turkey today, should have guns.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1355 "2024-06-08T22:07:42Z")
It seems like the case can be broken down into two separate issues:
1. Did Hunter lie when he filled out the form?
2. Does Hunter meet the criteria to be considered a user and/or addict?
The first issue is based on Hunter’s state of mind. Did he believe he was telling the truth or that he was lying? If in his mind he’s not a user or addict, then he didn’t lie. But if he was telling everyone he was a user and addict and then checked no, then the case is stronger that he lied.
The second issue is something that seems like the court could decide. Some comparable examples might be laws against “reckless driving” and “display of excessive speed”. Even if someone doesn’t believe they were driving recklessly, if the police and court decide they were, they will be found guilty.
Even if most everyone considers Hunter a user and an addict, that doesn’t mean he lied. But it would mean he could be found guilty of buying a gun while a user/addict and be subject to those penalties. But I don’t think he can be found guilty of lying on the form unless they can actually prove in his mind he knew he was lying when he filled out the form. Even if today he looks back and agrees he was an addict at the time, that doesn’t mean he realized that at the time. His state of mind back then may have been that he was fully in control and not an addict/user.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1356 "2024-06-08T23:11:41Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> Even if most everyone considers Hunter a user and an addict, that doesn’t mean he lied. But it would mean he could be found guilty of buying a gun while a user/addict and be subject to those penalties. But I don’t think he can be found guilty of lying on the form unless they can actually prove in his mind he knew he was lying when he filled out the form.
It’s going to come down to the jury instructions. The judge hasn’t decided yet on what the jury will be told, but both sides have submitted their opinion.
> [@](#):
>
> Biden’s lawyers wanted the judge to instruct the jury that Biden could have been acting in “good faith” when he wrote on the form that he didn’t have a drug addiction.
>
> In a court filing on Thursday, Biden’s suggestion was strongly rejected by prosecutors. His team wrote that, to be guilty of the crime, Biden would have to “knowingly” fill out the form incorrectly, and therefore his actions could not be both “knowingly” wrong and also be done “in good faith.”
>
> They wrote that both sides have already agreed on a definition for “knowingly” which reads: “A person acts ‘knowingly’ if that person acts voluntarily and intentionally and not because of mistake or accident or other innocent reason.”
> **[Hunter Biden suffers jury blow](https://www.newsweek.com/hunter-biden-gun-drugs-crack-cocaine-trial-delaware-jury-instructions-joe-biden-pistol-1909638)**
>
> Biden wanted the jury to believe that the might have been acting "in good faith" when he failed to declare a drug addiction.
Were it me? I’d vote guilty, albeit reluctantly. It’s a shitty law, but he was an active drug addict when he bought the gun.
The cross examination of his daughter, which included texts from her frustrated that she couldn’t find him during the time in question (and responses form him at 2 am) were damning for the defense.
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### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1357 "2024-06-08T23:23:32Z")
> [@Moriarty](#):
>
> You can refer to the form that was introduced, which was that original signed by Hunter.
The form in evidence is a black-and-white copy of the original form. The defense is not allowed to talk about the actual piece of paper that Hunter Biden signed. The prosecution is alleging that Biden committed a crime when he signed a particular piece of paper and the defense can’t show that piece of paper to the jury.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1358 "2024-06-08T23:28:49Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> The form in evidence is a black-and-white copy of the original form.
Are you sure?
From my earlier cite
> [@Moriarty](#):
>
> [Hunter Biden Attorney Abbe] Lowell also noted that certain information on the form was entered in black ink, while other information was in red ink.
That wouldn’t be apparent in a black and white copy. I think it’s the _later_ B&W copy that the defense wanted to also introduce, to show that it was altered.
> [@Moriarty](#):
>
> A shop employee created the original document when Hunter Biden purchased the firearm in 2018. It lists Biden’s passport as the ID he presented to the shop employee.
>
> **Years later, however, a copy was made**. The copy included a handwritten note, “DE Vehicle Registration,” on a line left blank for “Supplemental Government Issued Documentation.” Store employees did so in 2021 to rectify a requirement that gun buyers present a form of ID that includes an address, which passports do not.
> **[As Hunter Biden goes to trial on gun charges, here's how his attorneys plan...](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/hunter-biden-trial-gun-charges-attorneys-plan-defend/story?id=110723466)**
>
> President Joe Biden's son Hunter Biden goes on trial Monday on three felony gun charges in what federal prosecutors have characterized as "a simple case."
---
### Author:  [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1359 "2024-06-09T00:09:11Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> It seems like the case can be broken down into two separate issues:
>
> 1. Did Hunter lie when he filled out the form?
> 2. Does Hunter meet the criteria to be considered a user and/or addict?
There’s a third count rarely discussed here. [Prosecutors say he knowingly possessed the gun for 11 days as he was battling an addiction to illegal drugs, a violation of federal law.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hunter-biden-trial-gun-charges/)
Is eleven days a very short time, especially if he never did anything with the gun? Yes. If guilty, he should not get jail time.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1360 "2024-06-09T00:13:16Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#):
>
> Also, you might really need a driver’s license, such as to get to a job where there is no public transportation. I doubt that Hunter needed a revolver in that sense.
I approve of your proposal of “you don’t really need a gun so you don’t get a license.” I hope this becomes more widely accepted.
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### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2024, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1361 "2024-06-09T00:27:41Z")
> [@Moriarty](#):
>
> Are you sure?
I made a small error. The form in evidence is a copy of the original but it is a color copy. It was sent to the ATF on October 26, 2018. The original, actual piece of paper that HB signed stayed at the gun shop.
It wasn’t until 2021 that somebody on the government side thought it might be a good idea to pick up the original. This is the form the defense is not allowed to talk about. It really is the actual physical piece of paper that Biden signed.
The prosecution has argued that Hunter Biden signing this piece of paper is a crime and that seeing this piece of paper would confuse and/or mislead the jury.
[Judge Noreika’s ruling.](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ded.82797/gov.uscourts.ded.82797.207.0.pdf)
[The 2018 copy of the form in evidence.](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ded.82797/gov.uscourts.ded.82797.177.2.pdf)
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### Author:  [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1362 "2024-06-09T00:39:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> I approve of your proposal of “you don’t really need a gun so you don’t get a license.” I hope this becomes more widely accepted.
It was the case in a good number of red states until recent Supreme Court cases. If you wanted a gun permit, in, say, New York State, you scheduled an appointment at the police station and discussed your situation. Usually they approved you, but this process stopped many impulsive mistakes.
As for Hunter, it might be hard for me to say an impulsive purchase is intentional. But, next day, I’d hope he’d realize he did something questionable, and call a lawyer for advice. The lawyer might have offered to accompany him while he turns it in to the police through the Delaware [Firearm Recovery Program](https://delcode.delaware.gov/title16/c104/index.html). If, after that, they arrested him for the Form 4473 checkmark, that really would be prosecutorial abuse.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2024, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hunter-biden-investigation-thread-started-in-2019-hunter-pardoned-on-december-1-2024/840964/1363 "2024-06-09T00:48:39Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> The form in evidence is a copy of the original but it is a color copy. It was sent to the ATF on October 26, 2018. The original, actual piece of paper that HB signed stayed at the gun shop.
Ah, I see.
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> The prosecution has argued that Hunter Biden signing this piece of paper is a crime and that seeing this piece of paper would confuse and/or mislead the jury.
I understand your frustration, but the ultimate issue is whether he lied when answering the question, and I can see why the judge didn’t want a diversion into the details of the document on which he provided his answer that aren’t germane to that issue.
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