Frankly, it’s a no-win situation for them. They can stay and participate in enforcing fascism, or leave and be replaced with wholehearted supporters of fascism. So it’s understandable if they pick the option that at least means they aren’t personally devoting themselves to fascism. It likely won’t help, but “helping” isn’t an option.
It helps save your soul. It helps you sleep at night. It sends a message.
Thank you everyone for the swift answers. And I see what you are saying. I’m not sure what I’m thinking other than isn’t it worse to quit because it’ll just fill up with people who WANT to do amoral/unethical/possibly illegal things? I guess I think there would be a way to oppose or to fight on the inside, but I wouldn’t really know.. change from within.. perhaps its just delusional thinking.
Has resigning ever done anything other that just send a message? Current regime doesn’t really respond to messaging…
Well, it can be hoped they’ll be less competent at least. Generally when the most important qualification for being hired is loyalty to a regime and a lack of morality, competency takes a hit.
You would probably end up being fired pretty quickly, and end up in the same place.
ETA: you could, I suppose, “play along” and pretend to be doing what you were asked to do. Then you just sit on it until perhaps it blows over. Promise results in “two weeks.” Not as satisfying as resigning in protest, but maybe more effective. I don’t know.
This is kinda what I was thinking, the idea of perhaps… losing paperwork, mistyping it, ect. I think there can be many ways of tiny protests from within that disrupt the machine and create larger ripples.
Largely my thinking comes from military members who resigned, I think it would send a bigger message if many people started getting fired for not wanting to follow illegal orders. I would want competent military leaders who know when to refuse unconstitutional orders.
FWIW I am not an expert on anything. And to avoid derailing a thread I’ll just leave it at that.
We’ve seen this happen in real time over the past year.
I think your posts totally belong in this thread: not a derail.
I was thinking something similar myself, although I do not mean to criticism anyone who HAS quit. They have decided it’s the best thing to do and I have to respect that.
Another consideration. I wouldn’t want people in my profession to think I was working towards this kind of prosecution, even if I secretly knew I was sabotaging it. Professional reputation is important. Maybe I’d do it and write a book later about how I screwed up Trump’s evil plans from the inside. But, my first impulse would certainly be to quit.
I’ve posed a similar idea in this thread before. Federal and state jobs are usually difficult to get fired from. I don’t want to rely on incompetence to prevent the slip toward authoritarianism. If I had a job that helped authoritarians then I’d think I’d equally have the same opportunities to ruin their plans. Just have to be creative.
I also don’t fault people who do quit, I know even attempting ruination could put others close to you in harms way (That’s why super-heroes wear the mask right?), but I’d also value my countries democracy over my own professional reputation. Again not that it means much cause I am not in that kind of position nor do I have a profession.
I do sit around and think what can I do? I am FAR from being the target of the regime to the point I have little to risk as long as I choose my words/interactions carefully.
Plus, when you go looking for another job, and your potential employer sees, “Fired from DOJ for cause,” it’s going to make getting that new job a lot harder. And explaining, “Oh, I was deliberately fucking up because I didn’t like what my boss was telling me to do,” isn’t going to make you sound any better as a potential employee.
With Donald Trump (and formerly Elon Musk) that does not seem to be the case anymore, at least at the federal level.
IANAL, but my understanding is that these positions are not all that easy to fill; it’s not like hiring McDonald’s workers (actually, those are hard to find these days too!). There is a lot of searching, vetting, interviewing, onboarding, etc. It definitely seems to throw some metal shavings in the gears…
Plus, it’s really bad PR for the DOJ and the Trump regime in general.
That’s why you’d have to get creative. They already don’t fire for incompetence…
Watching everything else that gives him bad PR… a few judges resigning isn’t going to do much worse for his PR.
So if you publicly pretend to kiss up to the MAGA leaders, but secretly hate them, and in the meantime you are terrible at your job, how is that different from who would likely replace you if you resigned? It seems like the only real difference is you’re being incompetent on purpose.
I see no reason why the people who left should have stayed. If they had power to actually change anything, they would have. They left because they don’t. The only things they could do is protect themselves (and their reputations) legally, emotionally, and morally by leaving. And the message they send by resigning is pretty powerful.
I think it also make Trump look weak and foolish. When someone who requires so much loyalty from everyone has people quitting on him, I guarantee you it is driving him crazy.
Only if you actually care about them doing a good job. I’m sure the Trumpists will be happy to replace them with random MAGA believers who know as much about law as he does of theoretical physics.
Then again, I doubt they could competently staff a McDonald’s, either.
Intentional incompetence can be far more harming.
But to restate: I won’t fault anyone who needs to resign and I don’t think anyone should stay. Because I am not them and I don’t know the situation. I think the hypothetical was worth exploring.
I would like to think you, as well as most people here, thought this way before anyone resigned.
Couple of other concerns.
Lawyers have (pretty loose) ethical obligations. On one hand, one might be expected to resign (or report) if their employer wants them to act unethically. OTOH, subverting your client’s interests might be considered unethical.
Also, DoJ attys swear an oath. I do not know the exact wording of the oath. There is ongoing debate over whether their loyalty is to the Constitution, the law, or the President. But I could imagine attempts at sabotage/subterfuge being interpreted unkindly. And we know that - if nothing else - this administration is vindictive.
In my somewhat considerable experience, AUSAs are generally pretty competent, dedicated, and hard working. AUSA is a pretty selective and competitive position. Not a lot of slacker dummies. These folk might get replaced by Trump loyalists, but they will likely not be as capable at their jobs as their experienced predecessors. So their efforts may be less successful.
Well, sure.