# The Iliad - Your Take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 29, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755 "2001-08-29T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/1 "2001-08-29T17:50:28Z")
I was just given the Iliad by Homer (Of Non-Simpsons Fame šŸ˜‰ ) by a co-worker and plan on buckling down tonight and reading it. Iā€™ve also taken a skim through it and it looks to be broken down like the Bible. (Chapters and verses.) If youā€™ve read it, what is your take on it? Iā€™m I in for a good read? (Iā€™ve read reviews on sites, but their agenda is to get you to buy it, so they will always say its good.) ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/2 "2001-08-29T17:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maximum Override \* > \*\*I was just given the Iliad by Homer (Of Non-Simpsons Fame šŸ˜‰ ) by a co-worker \*\* Was the co-worker an engineer? Because you know what they say about geeks bearing gifts. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/3 "2001-08-29T17:56:01Z")
Big subject. Very big subject. Considering it is commonly considered the greatest epic poem in the history of the west, _The Iliad_ rather defies a ā€œtake.ā€ Regardless, I absolutely adore it. While even a die-hard, Greek-reading classicist such as myself skips the Catalogue of Ships in Book 2, I can find something to love in nearly every other speech, descriptive passage, or dialogue between characters. It must be read several times, and _slowly_ in order to maximize the pleasure gained. This is _my_ ideal, so as always, YMMV. More importantly for your purposes is the selection of a good translation. If you havenā€™t bought your copy yet, let me know. Iā€™d be happy to suggest some of my favorite translations. Itā€™s a great read, bar none. The scene in Book I in which Achilles nearly draws his sword and kills Agamemnon gives me chills every time I read it. MR ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/4 "2001-08-29T18:06:47Z")
BoyOhBoyOhBoyā€¦Getting excited. šŸ˜ƒ The copy I have was translated by Richmond Lattimore (ISBN: 0-226-46940-9) and was printed by the University of Chicago Press. Donā€™t know if heā€™s any good, but here is some background on him from the back of the book: > [@](#): > > **Richmond Lattimore** was professor emeritus of Greek at Bryn Mawr College at the time of his death in 1984. He was coeditor (with David Grene) of _The Complete Greek Tragedies_, translator of _Greek Lyrics_, and author of _Poems from Three Decades_, all published by the University of Chicago Press. Iā€™ve never read anything like this before, so I am looking forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/5 "2001-08-29T18:15:32Z")
The Lattimore is the translation I typically use. Itā€™s in blank verse, and some of it is rather dull or clumsy. However, it is by far the closest to the original Greek of any translation I have dealt with. It captures the strangeness of Greek heroic poetry rather nicely, even if it isnā€™t exactly a verbal feast. It may help to get some context down before you start reading. Every Greek who would have heard this poem recited already knew the story, the characters, and many of the highlights. I believe that this same knowledge is even more essential to the modern reader. So how up are you on your history of the Trojan War? šŸ˜‰ MR ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/6 "2001-08-29T18:19:18Z")
Achilles is a spoiled brat. Ares is a crybaby. Aphrodite is a vindictive slut. Paris is a sullen wanker. Hector rocked, then he got rolled. Aeneas deserved his own spinoff series. Who the hell would want a giant wooden rocking horse, anyway? Agamemnon could have used a course in active listening. šŸ˜‰ Oh, and the damn thing is a page turner. Read it aloud, even in translation. Poetry is not meant to be a silent activity. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/7 "2001-08-29T18:20:59Z")
Just have some sympathy for the Trojans- itā€™ll make the segue into the Aeneid so much nicer. ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/8 "2001-08-29T18:27:39Z")
I am far from a scholar of Greek mythology/history, but while skimming, I did recognise the names of many characters that I have read/learned about when I was younger. (IE:Artemis, Agamemnon, Zeus(duh!), Kronos, et al.) And I know who the Trojans were, but not much about their history. Iā€™m sure _who_ they are will come back to me as I read. The glossary will also help me out. (And if I am still not sure, my buddy Google will help. šŸ˜‰ ) So far, it looks like this is not going to be something that is just ā€˜readā€™, but something that you ā€˜experienceā€™. (If you follow me.) LOL! Thanks for the run down, **Spiritus**. Sure beats that _this_ glossary says. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/9 "2001-08-29T18:28:21Z")
I read it about seven years ago, in English translation. I donā€™t remember who the translator was. I remember being surprised how little of the story of the Trojan war it covered. I had always assumed that it went through the sack of Troy. Hector was definitely my favorite character. Heā€™s fighting for his home and his family, and you can see that he loves them. I like him much better than any of the Greeks, or the gods for that matter. Certain points in between battles were slow and boring to me, but it did maintain my interest to the end. The language is florid and occasionally rousing. Overall, I thought it was worth reading, but it wasnā€™t an epochal event for me. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/10 "2001-08-29T18:29:08Z")
Epic in its sweep! Thrilling battles, clever ruses! The male bonding book of the past four millenia! A must read. I canā€™t wait for the Odyessy, the rumored sequel! Anit-spoiler: P.S. Agamemnon survives the Iliad! I wonā€™t tell you who he kills. ---
**Author:** ![ChordedZither](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9c0ed/32.png) [@ChordedZither](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChordedZither)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/11 "2001-08-29T18:30:02Z")
Great idea, **Spiritus**! > [@](#): > > Aeneas deserved his own spinoff series. I have a friend, Publius Virgilius, whoā€™s been trying to break into the writing field. As soon as he getā€™s back from his day job, leading tour groups through the inferno, Iā€™ll mention this to him. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/12 "2001-08-29T18:32:49Z")
ā€œJust like Achilles sulking in his tent.ā€ [pauses] ā€œHomer?ā€ [pauses] ā€œThe _Illiad_?ā€ [pauses] ā€œ_READ A BOOK!_ā€ [ul][list][list][list][list] --Handy (from The Tick, not the handy of SDMB fame.)[/ul][/list][/list][/list][/list] Fun game to play at home: keep track of Homerā€™s stock phrases, like ā€œgive up the ghostā€ and ā€œbite the dust.ā€ ā€œRosy-fingered dawnā€ was Homer, too, wasnā€™t it? Not bad for a blind guy. ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/13 "2001-08-29T18:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maximum Override \* > **ā€¦And I know who the Trojans were, but not much about their history.** Errā€¦apart from the seige of Troy and the big wooden horsy. [sub][hijack] ā€œā€¦then Sir Lancelot, Gallahad and I will leap out of the Rabbitā€¦ā€ [/hijack][/sub] This is starting to look like those ā€œPrinces Brideā€ threads. None of the posts made sence until I saw the movie last month. [sub]::Hangs Head In Shame::[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/14 "2001-08-29T18:41:27Z")
I enjoyed it. And I enjoyed seeing this thread, as it gave me an excuse to rescue one of my old usenet posts that Iā€™m particularly proud of. Drasticā€™s Achilles, Reimagined for the Modern Audience: Given that the Illiad, at least, is primarily one long fight scene, with the occasional break for discus-hurling and surly speeches, I had the thought that it would make a good big-budget film. Certain aspects of the story would need to be modified, of course, to better satisfy the modern audience. The gist of the revamped vision: 1: Achilles is the king. 2: Agamemnon is his trusty sidekick. 3: The slave girl he spent most of the tale sulking over is actually his true love who brings the distant warrior out of his shell. 4: The evil Hector secretly kidnaps Achillesā€™ true love and holds her hostage in Troy. He promises to kill her if Achilles ever fights again. Deeply troubled, Achilles does not dare fight; the other Greeks, in their ignorance, think him a coward but he cannot reveal the truth. That damn Hector! 5: Without Achilles, the evil Hector stampedes all over the greeks. He has bitchinā€™ ominous orchestral choruses whenever heā€™s on screen, hewing the forces of Good in slow motion. The audienceā€™s mood is tense, but comic relief is supplied by Ajax and Ajax. Best-loved sidekick Patroclus is killed; in agony of mind, Achilles gets new armor and prepares to fight again, knowing heā€™ll never see his true love again. The audience feels his pain, is teary-eyed at his heroic determination. 6: When things are their darkest, Achillesā€™ trusty sidekicks Agamemnon and Menelaius, sneak into Troy and rescue Achillesā€™ lady-love. 7: Achilles mows through routing Trojans as dramatic music blares. He is raging; he thinks his true love is now surely dead; he intends to join her one way or the other once Hector is dead at his feet. The audience knows better. 8: Final showdown. Hector is knocked down, Achilles sure to triumph, when Hectorā€™s evil apprentice Paris lets fly an arrow from his cowardly sniperā€™s position. Thwack! right into the heroā€™s heel. Achilles goes down, clutching at the arrow as Hector rises to finish him off, sword held high. 9: Paris gloats up above. A finger taps him on the shoulder. He turns. Agamemnon and Menelaus have rescued not only Achillesā€™ love but Helen as well. Helen kicks Paris in the crotch. His eyes bug out, he stumbles. Makes a funny ā€œoooooā€ strangled sound. The audience laughs appreciatively. ā€œConsider this a divorce,ā€ Helen tells him, and Menelaus pushes him off the wall. 10: Hector is still poised over Achilles, sword raised high. Apparently, all of #9 happened really fast, or Hector just likes to pause for dramatic effect. Achilles has lost, but thatā€™s okay, he knows his twue wuv is as good as dead. He looks past Hector, to the parapets of Troy and (triumphant music) sees Her with his trusty sidekicks, waving. This works just like spinach for Popeye. 11: Achilles surges to his feet, and the final showdown, part 2, takes place. Hector bites the dust. 12: Happy ending and celebration back at the Greek camp. Credits roll. Now, surely thatā€™s a better story. The original would just never fly, I mean, after all, Homerā€™s Achilles was sort of an petulant, pouty asshole. Itā€™s much better if Achilles is the misunderstood and ultimately vindicated hero. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/15 "2001-08-29T18:52:52Z")
Check out the [Perseus Site](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu). It has an enormous glossary of names, characters, concepts, etc. that will be of enormous use to you. You may also find texts in English, Latin, and Greek is you are interested. > [@](#): > > I remember being surprised how little of the story of the Trojan war it covered. I had always assumed that it went through the sack of Troy. An excellent point. When I first read it, I assumed it would at least cover the death of Achilles and the Trojan Horse. It doesnā€™t. I was pretty pissed. So donā€™t go in expecting that sort of detail and you will be less disappointed. šŸ˜‰ You may find more accounts of the sack of Troy in _The Odyssey_ and in some of the Greek plays. > [@](#): > > Anit-spoiler: P.S. Agamemnon survives the Iliad! I wonā€™t tell you who he kills. Or more importantly, who kills _him_. šŸ˜‰ > [@](#): > > Fun game to play at home: keep track of Homerā€™s stock phrases, like ā€œgive up the ghostā€ and ā€œbite the dust.ā€ ā€œRosy-fingered dawnā€ was Homer, too, wasnā€™t it? Not bad for a blind guy. If you are seriously interested in the subject of Homeric formulae and epithets, you might want to read the works of [Milman Parry](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/019520560X/qid=999111020/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/104-7466232-4613515). He dove in to the text, sorted and categorized the hundreds of formulae and epithets, and strove to explain how they created meaning and structure in the Homeric poems. His works are excellent, and they generated important methods of inquiry into epic poetry. MR ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/16 "2001-08-29T19:07:55Z")
\*Originally posted by Finagle \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Was the co-worker an engineer? Because you know what they say about geeks bearing gifts. \*\* _Woosh_ [sub]\[/sub] Sorry, must be a little slow today. šŸ˜‰ The co-worker wasnā€™t an engineer, but one of the lovely ladies in our sales department. (One of the few intellectuals in this office.) We were chatting and she mentioned that she had the book, so I though, ā€œIā€™d be interested in reading that.ā€ And the rest is history. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/17 "2001-08-29T19:09:12Z")
1. I love the Iliad. 2. I hate Richmond Lattimoreā€™s translation. When I was in high school we read Fitzgeraldā€™s translation of The Odyssey. I loved it. I wanted to read The Iliad, but Fitzgerald hadnā€™t finished translating it yet, so I got Lattimoreā€™s. Lattmore reads, in my opinion, like MY translation from Latin. Severely disappointing. 3. Robert Faglesā€™ translation (Penguin books) is pretty good, too. 4. If you can, get the Penguin Audio of Derek Jacobi reading Faglesā€™ translation. Itā€™s not complete (unlike the Peguin Audio reading of The Odyssey), but the six tapes are good. 5. The Iliad, despite its great age, is an incredibly mature work. You realize that someone has had a lot of time to consider these stories, and to give them a ā€œmodernā€ telling, as if they involved real people, and not stereotypes or symbols. Also, the storytelling is complex, with levels of storytelling within storytelling. 6. There are several guides to the Iliad, including a multi-volume set that goes through it damned near line by line. Maybe too expensive to buy, but you might find it at a local college library or through interlibrary loan. 7. Just for kicks, read **The Patrocleia** , translated by Christopher Logue. Itā€™s a translation of one book of the Iliad done in the weirdest style you can imagine (Achillesā€™ prayer to Zeus is modeled on the ā€œOur Fatherā€, for instance). Done in a jarringly modern style, with a lot of different typefaces. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/18 "2001-08-29T19:18:31Z")
Iā€™m not a big fan of Fagles, and personally, I think the man is an asshole. Fitzgerald is pretty solid, though I am a bit disappointed with his translation of the Aeneid. Anyone read Chapmanā€™s Iliad? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/19 "2001-08-29T19:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Iā€™m not a big fan of Fagles, and personally, I think the man is an asshole. > > Fitzgerald is pretty solid, though I am a bit disappointed with his translation of the Aeneid. > > Anyone read Chapmanā€™s Iliad? 1. Interesting comment on Fagles. Care to elaborate? I didnā€™t see anything to support that strong a condemnation. 2. Agree with you. I never did finish reading his translation of the Aeneid. 3. About Chapman: Iā€™ll look into it. (One of my favorite titles for a physics article was the one written about the physics of a baseball that appeared in the **American Journal of Physics**. It was entitled ā€œOn Looking into Chapmanā€™s Homerā€.) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755/20 "2001-08-29T20:02:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting comment on Fagles. Care to elaborate? I didnā€™t see anything to support that strong a condemnation. Iā€™ve met him. He regularly makes a circuit of museums, college campuses, etc to read from his translation. One of my former teachers knows him fairly well, so we had some access before and after the reading. He is not a very nice man, and seems to feel that he is Zeusā€™ gift to Homeric translation. Neither of these are endearing attributes in a scholar of a three thousand year old discipline. > [@](#): > > About Chapman: Iā€™ll look into it. (One of my favorite titles for a physics article was the one written about the physics of a baseball that appeared in the American Journal of Physics. It was entitled ā€œOn Looking into Chapmanā€™s Homerā€.) No kidding. The poem, ā€œOn Looking into Chapmanā€™s Homer,ā€ by John Keats, can be found [here](http://www.bartleby.com/101/634.html). Itā€™s a wonderful work. MR [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iliad-your-take/78755.md?page=2)