The (im)morality of NATO intervention in Kosovo

I find this incredible. Are you seriously maintaining that the U.S. bombed Kosovo because of popular pressure in Europe!? I had not heard this one before. Please justify this claim.

Hardly. But, before I really get into NATO’s motives, I first want to point out that every motive so far put forward for the NATO intervention is completely bogus.

So, what do we have? So far we have ruled out the humanitarian motive. That is clearly bogus. We also have it suggested that NATO was concerned about the refugee problem. This is also clearly false, since the NATO bombing vastly escalated the refugee problem, and predictably so. Furthermore, the entire refugee problem could have been solved if NATO would have agreed to the parts of Rambouillet that the Serbs agreed to, namely every part but Appendix B.

Therefore, the refugee problem is ruled out as a motive.

Anything else?


Hmmm…What contention are you disagreeing with? That it was already effectively destroyed? As far as I am concerned, that is objective fact. Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Macedonia were already gone and the relationship between the two remaining republics of Serbia and Montenegro was strained, though not irreparably so. Yuogslavia, as originally envisioned was dead, leaving a rump section with the same name, which was however less a union of ‘South Slavs’ and more a manifestation of Serbia ( Montenegrins being essentially Serbs in language and certain aspects of culture ).

Or are you arguing that the death of Yugoslavia wasn’t internally driven? This you can make more of a case for. But ultimately, I think you would have to say ( or I would, anyway ) that the tensions that lead to the disintegration were largely internal. Though it was certainly true that certain European states were encouraging of some of the separtist movements ( particularly in Slovenia with their relatively more sophisticated economy and to a slightly lesser extent Croatia ), they were rather less concerned with others like Bosnia and were uncomfortable with the spector of Macedonian secession which raised that whole can of worms with Greece. I think it is fair to say that Milosevic AND folks like Tudjman in Croatia bear a significant responsibility with their hyper-nationalistic rhetoric.

  • Tamerlane

Tamerlane: I disagree with you entirely regarding the cause of the breakup of Yugoslavia, and I will make a post addressing this issue.

But, before we go onto that, I want to make sure that we have reached a consensus that all of the reasons given by NATO for the bombing were lies. Once we have eliminated these as potential candidates for motivations for the bombing, then we can try to figure out the actual motivations.

So we’ve got to agree with you before we can move on. I really don’t see that happening.

Marc

I doubt you have your consensus at this moment. Myself, I’d like to see some more info. I have no doubt there was some NATO prevarication and confusion, including an unstated anti-Milosevic, anti-Serbia agenda fed by years of conflict in the Balkans. But I don’t think this is necessarily a black and white issue - I think there was a real fear of the situation spiraling out of control in Kosovo, then to neighboring Albania and Macedonia, then Greece.

Whether NATO was correct to intervene is an entirely different question.

  • Tamerlane

** Chumpsky**, your apologism for Milosevic, Arkan and the Serbian police puts you within touching distance of the Holocaust Deniers whose methods of debate you copy. Your single “cite” is merely an essay which appears to have been written by yourself.

Ian Brady & Myra Hindley were on trial for 5 deaths.
Frederick West: 13 deaths
The Yorkshire ripper, Jeffrey Dahmer,…

  • etc. *

Your attempts to defend this murdering fiend by quoting such “tiny” numbers as 381 would be laughable if they were not so disturbing.

I will definitely require a citation for this, since the Finnish forensic team of Dr. Helena Ratna concluded that “there was no reason to conclude that the victims were members of the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army”.

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/racak.htm

Again, isolate* one *supporting example, cast doubt on that one example using unreferenced aspersions with no clear basis in fact, and then question the entire validity of your opponent’s standpoint. You, sir, share the methodology of a Holocaust Denier. (And a Young Earth Creationist, for that matter.)

Racak was only one of the “stories” told by refugees. If it was true, why should it be the only such story?
If one massacre occurred, and the world did nothing, why would more not occur from then on?

If forensic searches of mass graves indicate instances of women, children and elderly people having received close range shots to the head, would you agree that these represent deliberate murders of civilians? How many such instances do you believe have been found to date? What proportion of the real figure do you believe this represents (100%)?

If Milosevic is found guilty, the evidence which condemned him will come to light in due course. Do you contend in advance that all such evidence is fake?

Start another thread.

Start another thread.

Again, your selective memory fails you. The * only * reason Milosevic agreed to anything was because he was threatened with military action. Why did he ban journalists? Why did he not agree to UN observation? Could it perhaps be that he knew full well that his forces were carrying out crimes against humanity? To suggest that the war would simply have petered out within a few weeks is absurd. Regardless of how unfairly you believe Serbia was treated regarding its sovereignty, a war which would have lasted years (like, I don’t know, * every single other war of independence in the world, ever*) was averted.

If these 381 deaths were the deliberate murders of members of a specific ethnic group, then yes, this does constitute genocide I’m afraid. Do you contend that these 381 deaths were not the deliberate murders of members of a specific ethnic group?
Finally, I’m sure your theories of the origins of the Balkan war will contain many claims which are as extraordinary as those of Holocaust Deniers, without any of the necessarily extraordinary evidence to back them up.

For what it’s worth, here’s my understanding: Marshall Tito’s unification of the “powder keg of Europe” and subsequent resistance of direct Soviet rule was a remarkable achievement (although by no means free of human rights abuses). When I visited Croatia in 1985, just 5 years after Tito’s death, the unity he fostered was rapidly crumbling, but no-one could forsee the savage and brutal war on the horizon, with towns and villages turning on themselves in inter-ethnic bloodshed. Diplomatic efforts were made, UN troop involvement was mentioned but never carried through, and in the end the universal hatred was just too strong to dam.

Dear Chumpsky, I have no particular allegiance to capitalism, Bush or New Labour, but if Milosevic and Arkan are your friends then your enemies are democracy, multiculturalism and freedom from persecution.

I don’t think he has any love for Milosevic. I just think he hates everything the United States does.

Marc

No, you have not ruled out humanitarianism. Sad to say, in this thingy we call real life, sometimes the bacterial toxins are hitting their peak even as the infection is healing…

In other words, we may have made the situation worse in the short run, but halted a long-term disaster. Pay now or pay more later.

In any event, merely because NATO refuses to accept conditional withdrawals or surrenders (see Chumpsky’s inane comment about Ramboillet or whatever its spelled), does not mean much.

I guess you missed the part where I stated, in so many words, that this was my OPINION. You know, like in so many posts where your claims are manifestly your opinion, and nothing more.

In any event, it shouldn’t seem so incredible. The US is not the only member of NATO, you know, and the Kosovo intervention was not exclusively a US operation, as you have twice tried to imply.

Anyone who lived through the 1989-1999 period and was reasonably aware of their surroundings could not help but notice that there was a litany of public outrage, in the US as well as Europe, over the atrocities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I’m not going to provide a cite for this; it’s a well-known fact. Various people made movies about it, for God’s sake (ever seen Welcome to Sarajevo? Underground?) I therefore have no great problem imagining that certain elected officials in the US and Europe, noting the unhappiness of their constituents with their dithering over Bosnia, would feel motivated to be seen as pro-active when a similar crisis appeared to brewing in Kosovo. Are you going to seriously contend that media never simply report on events, and that politicians never pay any attention to the media?

You keep saying that the ‘real reason’ for the intervention was to dismember the remainder of Yugoslavia. You have not presented any evidence in support of this notion, nor have you even presented a reasonable opinion as to what the advantage would be to NATO members by such an action. Until you do, I’ll stick with my opinion, as it seems at least plausible.

Actually, no; “we”, meaning the readers of this thread, apparently have not ruled these things out. You, OTOH, had already ruled these out, before this thread ever started. Right now, all we have are your, my, and others’ opinions on NATO’s motives for action in Kosovo. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, a good way to start would be to show by documentary evidence that NATO’s ultimate objective was as you claimed.

Only, tell it to the other readers here, because I am, like SO finished with this thread.

Chumpsky’s logic eerily parallels those of Holocaust ‘revisionists.’ I’m wondering if one of the places he gets his info from is Compuserb.com

To recapitulate: This thread regards the morality of NATO’s bombing of Serbia in 1999. Central to this question is the motivation for the bombing. What is kind of amazing is that a clear explanation for the bombing is so hard to come by. Every ostensible motivation crumbles upon a moment’s inspection. Up to this point, we have seen three candidates for the NATO motivation for the bombing of Serbia. Please point out if I have missed any.

  1. To stop a humanitarian crisis.
  2. To prevent refugee flow into neighboring countries.
  3. As a response to popular pressure to bomb Serbia in Europe.

Let us go through these one by one.

  1. To stop a humanitarian crisis. In order to believe this, one would have to believe that the U.S. cares so much about human rights that it is willing to go to war to protect minority populations from human rights abuses. Is this credible? Well, consider a partial history of U.S. actions with respect to human rights abuses:
    [ul][li]Before World War II, for example, the United States could have admitted many Jews fleeing from Hitler’s Europe; it did not. [/li][li]During World War II, the United States could have bombed the death camp at Auschwitz, slowing down the Nazi killing machine; it did not. [/li][li]When hundreds of thousands of people were slaughtered in Indonesia in 1965; the killers were cheered on by the U.S. government which even provided lists of communists to exterminate. [/li][li]When the Pakistani army began slaughtering and raping hundreds of thousands of Bengalis in 1971, sending millions into exile, U.S. policy was to (in Kissinger’s words) “tilt in favor of Pakistan.” [/li][li]When Indonesia invaded East Timor, leading to the deaths of one third of the population, it received weapons and diplomatic support from Washington. In 1999, on the eve of a vote for independence, White House press secretary Joe Lockhart was asked whether the United States supported independence for East Timor. “Not that I am aware of,” he replied. [/li][li]When the Khmer Rouge was responsible for monstrous killings in Cambodia, the United States encouraged China to aid the Khmer Rouge and provided covert aid of its own. [/li][li]When the government of Guatemala killed 200,000 people in the 1980s, it was with United States aid and encouragement. [/li][li]When upwards of half a million people, mostly members of the Tutsi ethnic minority, were exterminated in Rwanda in 1994, the Clinton administration demanded that a UN force already on the scene be reduced and obstructed efforts to save lives, even failing to apply diplomatic pressure against the killers.[/ul] [/li]This partial list shows that the U.S. national security state has been at best indifferent to human rights abuses. Perhaps, though, the Kosovo action is a break from history, and shows that the U.S. has undergone a sort of religious transformation to one of protecting human rights. This would mark an event of enormous importance in world history, one that would be marked by a profound change of U.S. policy around the world, and not merely limited to Kosovo. Was this the case?

Well, in 1999, the U.S. continued to send military aid to Columbia, Turkey, Israel and Indonesia, among others, all well-known human rights abusers. Indeed, as Columbia became the worst human rights abuser in the western hemisphere in the late 1990’s, it also became the leading recipient of U.S. aid, (apart from Israel and Egypt, which are in a seperate category) taking over the top spot from Turkey, which had succeeded in wiping out several thousand Kurdish villages in the 1990’s.

Did Kosovo really mark a sea change? Consider the case of East Timor. In August, 1999, 5 months after the beginning of the bombing of Serbia, the Timorese were asked to vote on Independence from Indonesia which had invaded and occupied the country in 1975. The Indonesian military and para-military announced quite openly that a vote for independence would result in a mass slaughter. It was not a threat without substance. The Indonesian military had already massacred over 200,000 Timorese during the years 1975 to 1999, all with total U.S. support. This support continued until the end of 1999, after the bombing of Kosovo. Thus, if the U.S. had indeed undergone a religious transformation, it would have cut off aid to the Indonesian military. It did not.

U.S. policy with regard to East Timor alone shows that there was no religious transformation, and this is not the only case. Similar policies were carried out in Columbia, Turkey, etc., where military support was extended to states that are well-known abusers of human rights.

Furthermore, the bombings vastly escalated the humanitarian crisis, and predictably so. Supreme commander General Wesley Clark remarked on March 27, 1999 that an “entirely predictable” result of the bombings would be an escalation of the humanitarian crisis. He later remarked that “I can’t say I’m surprised by any of this.” cite

Lastly, the entire conflict could easily have been resolved if NATO had accepted the Serb offer. From this site:

"[In March, 1999] The US draws up a document which it presents to the KLA and the Yugoslav government. There are no negotiations. Both sides are told to ‘take it or leave it.’ The document requires Yugoslav withdrawal from Kosovo, the introduction of a NATO occupying force with total powers, and a plebiscite to decide on independence for Kosovo. What the American people aren’t told is that the document also gives NATO forces free rein throughout Yugoslavia, including Serbia itself, even Belgrade. It grants NATO forces free use of airports, roads, rails, and ports; free telecommunication services; and total immunity throughout Yugoslavia. In essence, this ‘agreement’ would allow NATO to occupy all of Yugoslavia, not just Kosovo. Members of the US “negotiating” team bragged that they intentionally set the bar too high for Milosevic to accept. ‘He needs a good dose of bombing, and that’s what he’s going to get.’

Amazingly, Milosevic accepted all the Rambouillet demands except for NATO occupation of Yugoslavia itself. He wanted the troops to be under UN command. (NY Times 4/8/99) Dan Goure, Deputy Director, CSIS and a Pentagon official under Bush said, ‘Rambouillet was not a negotiation, it was a setup, a lynch party.’ (Institute for Public Accuracy 5/4/99)"

In short, every NATO demand was agreed to by the Serbs, except for NATO occupation of Yugoslavia, a demand that would be unacceptable to ANY country.

So, for these reasons, number 1 is ruled out as a motivation for the NATO bombing. Let’s look at number 2:

  1. To prevent refugee flow into neighboring countries. This is a very curious one. Again, the “entirely predictable” result of the bombing was that the refugee crisis was escalated. This is exactly what happened. Before the bombing started there was no refugee flow out of Kosovo, but that changed after the bombing started. Furthermore, as stated above, the entire problem could have been solved, with a granting of autonomy to Kosovo, if NATO had accepted the Serb offer and not demanded NATO occupation of all of Yugoslavia.

Therefore, number 2 is ruled out as a motivation for the bombing. Moving on to number 3:

  1. As a response to popular pressure to bomb Serbia in Europe. This one is so outlandish that I think it may have been a joke by El_Kabong. One can imagine masses demonstrating in the streets of Geneva with signs reading “Bomb Serbia Now!” In some bizarro world we can imagine that. In the real world, however, there was no popular pressure for NATO to bomb Serbia. After a massive propaganda campaign, the NATO lie machine managed to garner some support for the action, but only by the most tortured imaginings can we conceive of this bombing as being a response to popular pressure. And, again, if the bombing really was a response to popular pressure, surely the peaceful alternative proposed by the Serbs would have been more popular.

Therefore number 3 is ruled out.

This shows that every reason given for the NATO bombing was a lie. What was the actual motivation? Well, before getting into that, I would like to see if anyone objects to the reasoning in this post, or can point to another motivation that I missed.

Chumpsky, you aren’t going to get everyone to fall at your feet and agree with you. If you have an alternate theory, why don’t you just say what it is and make your case? You’re starting to remind me of Joseph “I have a list of Communists who are employees of the State Department” McCarthy and Richard “Secret plan to end the war in Vietnam” Nixon here.

There are vast fields of oil in Kosovo…There was a torrid love triangle between Clinton, Monica Lewinsky, and Slobodan Milosevic…Clinton was actually a deep cover mind-controlled Albanian mole infiltrated into the U.S. after the real Clinton was abducted and done away with on his visit to Moscow back in the '60’s…The United States is just eee-vil!

I have already stated what I think the bombing was about. But, what happens in these threads is that you get pulled in all sorts of different directions. So, if I start explaining about U.S. interests in Yugoslavia, I’m sure somebody would yell, “What about Racak!” So, I just wanted to deal with one thing at a time. First I wanted to show that the ostensible reasons for the bombing were all lies. Then, when we try to understand what was really going on, we can dismiss those reasons without having to go over them over and over again.

Well, if nobody objects to the reasoning above, I claim that the reasons for the bombing of Yugoslavia were, in order of importance: (1) to consumate the final destruction of Yugoslavia, (2) to jusfity the continued existence of NATO, and (3) generalized war mongering by the military-industrial complex.

To summarize:

For 40 years Yugoslavia was allowed to exist as a socialist country as a buffer to the Soviet Union. It’s well-known enmity with the USSR was a useful propaganda tool which gave it a reprieve from western attack. But, after the breakup of the USSR, Yugoslavia had outlived its usefulness. After that, it was simply a part of Europe that was not dominated by western capital. Yugoslavia was the only part of Europe which resisted integration into the global capitalist system. They showed no interest in joining the EU or NATO, and were quite content with their socialist system which had kept together a multi-ethnic society with a healthy social system. The existence of Yugoslavia annoyed western capitalists who can’t stand to see a part of the world that they can’t exploit for their own profit.

The U.S.-led war on Yugoslavia really began in 1990 when the Bush Administration and Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law. It cut off funding for any part of Yugoslavia that didn’t declare independence within six months. It restricted funding to elements judged “democratic” (i.e. capitalist) by the U.S. The law specifically extended to IMF and World Bank funding as well. This was widely recognized to be a “death sentence” for Yugoslavia.

The CIA was used to resurrect and stir up old hatreds, and the U.S. supported reactionary forces in Croatia and Bosnia. The U.S. sabotaged peace deals which would have restored ethnic peace, and it used military force to support its chosen factions against their own people. It used military force to aid the Croatian fascists in the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Serbs from Krajina, dumping them as refugees upon less-affluent Serbia. It simultaneously built up a KLA force of counter-revolutionaries to keep the pot boiling in Kosovo. The U.S. put the finishing touches on the breakup of Yugoslavia by forcing the Serbs to reject the Rambouillet “accords,” and unleashed a massive bombing campaign which was justified by a refugee exodus which didn’t start until after NATO started bombing.

Quite content? Healthy? Tito murdered more than 100,000 people. That’s simply disgusting of you to whitewash history like that.

Compilation of Cites on the Tito Body Count

Chumpsky, what your post demonstrated was that, based upon your personal interpretations of events, you think that every reason given was a lie. For us to agree, we must accept your interpretation. And it appears that most of us don’t.

Try again, and aim for coherency as a starting point.

BTW, you really must pick up a dictionary someday, as you’ve had this problem in the past –

‘to lie’ is NOT defined as “disagreeing with Chumpsky.

Sua

Well … mind pointing out where you disagree?

Chumpsky, you list three explanations for the bombings, and fail to dispose of any of them.

  1. To stop a humanitarian crisis.

Your response? Apparently, your position is that a country must prevent all human rights abuses, or prevent none of them. If that is truly what you believe, I wonder how you can possibly justify posting in this thread when there are so many other threads in which are not participating. Your pointing out that there are inconsistencies in US foreign policy is neither more probative nor more surprising than pointing out the sky is blue.

  1. To prevent refugee flow into neighboring countries.

To this you wave you “entirely predictable” quote like a magic wand. Which is odd, because earlier you used it against reason number one. Do you have any evidence that NATO believed that the overall refugee flow, both long term and short term, would increase as a result of the bombing?

  1. As a response to popular pressure to bomb Serbia in Europe.

To this, you present only your own incredulity as rebuttal. Which is ironic, considering that you claim that "In the real world, however, there was no popular pressure for NATO to bomb Serbia, " a statement clearly at odds with the facts. Here a just a few cites showing popular support for the bombing:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/990324kosovopoll.html
http://www.gallup.hu/gallup/self/polls/kosovo/bombing/990408/bombing990408_en.htm
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/01/poll/

Next, you present your own reasons: (1) to consumate the final destruction of Yugoslavia, (2) to jusfity the continued existence of NATO, and (3) generalized war mongering by the military-industrial complex.
Can’t your number one be considered derivative of the first number one (Yugoslavia’s record on human rights means one could advocate its destruction on humanitarian grounds)? Your other two reasons make no sense in light of your statement that “The U.S.-led war on Yugoslavia really began in 1990 when the Bush Administration and Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law.” If the war began as an economic conflict, then how can NATO justification and MIC “warmongering” have been responsible?

Finally, when you claim that “[The cutting off of US aid] was widely recognized to be a ‘death sentence’ for Yugoslavia,” are you stating that the economy of Yugoslavia was entirely dependent on US aid?

Did you read what I wrote? Nowhere did I say anything like that. Please read what I wrote.

Factually, the refugee flow was vastly escalated by the bombing. This was, indeed, the “entirely predictable” result of the bombing, at least according to the supreme commander of NATO forces.

There are three points:

  1. A poll showing support for the bombing does not mean that the bombing was the result of popular pressure. Poll questions can be manipulated to get whatever answer you want. What real evidence is there that the people were putting pressure on Washington to bomb Serbia, so much pressure, in fact, but that they had no choice! Keep in mind that popular pressure has to fairly significant and consistent to have a real effect on public policy. Millions of people demonstrating in the streets did not end the Vietnam War, but a simple poll was enough to convince the U.S. to bomb Serbia?

Furthermore, even the polls themselves show how manipulative they were. For example, the CNN poll states, “58 percent say that the government of Slobodan Milosevic has been using all means possible, including mass killings, to get rid of all ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.” I followed mass media coverage pretty carefully, and I could never find an instance in the huge flood of coverage discussing the fact that Milosevic had proposed granting autonomy to Kosovo. Indeed, it was always just assumed that Milosevic had rejected Kosovo independence. This figure of 58 percent believing a blatant lie shows how manipulated the public was. For example, this is typical: “Czech President Vaclav Havel said that NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia were an extreme but inevitable action and said Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic must accept a Kosovo peace plan.” Havel has always been a useful liar, but it really shows you how total the propaganda effort was when a head of state can repeat a blatant lie like that. If the public was shown the actual facts, there would have been negligible support for the war. Indeed, the closer you got to Yugoslavia, where more of the facts were known, the less support there was for the bombing.

  1. The initial argument by El_Kabong was that the bombing was the result of popular pressure in Europe to bomb Serbia. The polls you cite are from the U.S.

  2. If the bombing was the result of popular pressure to end the crisis that the bombing provoked, why did the U.S./NATO not seek a peaceful solution, such as the one the Serbs proposed? Furthermore, why did the U.S. not take its case to the U.N., as it is bound to do by the U.N. and NATO charters, of which it is a signatory?

That is a fantastic statement. One has to be deeply indoctrinated into a highly arrogant imperialist ethic to believe that the destruction of a country contributes to humanitarian ends. Why haven’t we bombed Indonesia, Turkey or Columbia? They all have vastly worse human rights records than did Serbia, yet the U.S. supported them!

However, even if we grant NATO lies about Serb human rights abuses, there were other options to bombing. As I continue to point out, if the situation in Kosovo was the real motivation for the bombing, the U.S. could have accepted the Serb proposal at Rambouillet, which would have averted the entire catastrophe.

Furthermore, if the U.S. had the slightest interest in human rights, it would not actively support human rights abuses in such countries as Indonesia, Columbia, Turkey and Palestine. It would not have continued to supply the Indonesian military with attack helicopters as it was slaughtering Timorese. It would not have provided military support to Turkey as it wiped out thousands of Kurdish villages. It would not have supplied military support to Columbia as it burned down villages for Occidental Petroleum. All of these things were going on at the exact same time the U.S. was bombing Serbia, allegedly for humanitarian purposes.

The primary goal of the bombing was the destruction of Yugoslavia. However, there were other factors that strongly contributed to the action. The existence of NATO was getting harder and harder to justify, since the reason for its existence no longer existed. They needed a good war to show that NATO could be of some use. And, the MIC is always looking for war, whatever the pretext.

No. But it was dependent on various economic interactions with the rest of the world, through various institutions that the U.S. controls, such as the IMF and World Bank. The U.S. acted to isolate Yugoslavia from the rest of the world economically, denying loan credits, etc., if its constituent states did not declare independence.

Yugoslavia made some poor decisions which made it too dependent on western capital. In the 1970’s, it was modernizing its industry by borrowing from the west. This created a large debt. This is not, in itself, a bad thing. If you borrow money for a good purpose, like getting an education for example, then debt can be good. And, Yugoslavia did some very good things in building up its infrastructure and widening its social programs. The problem was that it left them dependent on the west, and in particular the U.S., to act in good faith. This was a fatal mistake. When the U.S. decided to break up Yugoslavia, it essentially leveraged Yugoslavia’s debts for its own purposes. This created an economic catastrophe, which, along with CIA shenanigans and direct military aid to Nazis like Alija Izetbegovic and other fascists, ripped Yugoslavia apart.

I really must insist that you stop misquoting me; the very next time you do this I will take it to the moderators. Please indicate any statement I made where I said there was popular pressure to bomb Serbia. Here, I’ll help you. What I said was the following:

I never claimed this as documented fact, only my opinion based on my experiences in Europe; I never said “bomb Serbia”; in fact most of the discussion on this subject envisioned a ground force of peacekeeping troops, which as you noted yourself, was rejected by Serbia. Got it?

We are talking about the NATO bombing of Serbia, to which you replied, “NATO acted (foolishly or otherewise) primarily due to public outcry…” I don’t think that I have misquoted you. Perhaps you wrote something you didn’t mean, but it is quite clear that you proposed that the NATO bombing was, in your own words, “primarily due to public outcry.”

Let’s be clear, then. Are you now rejecting the idea that the NATO bombing of Serbia was a response to popular pressure?

I have never noted any such thing. Serbia rejected NATO occupation of all of Yugoslavia, but was quite willing to allow U.N. peacekeepers in.