# The Impending Attempt to Oust Speaker McCarthy {10/1/2023}; Patrick McHenry is now Speaker Pro Tempore {2023-10-03} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958 "2023-10-01T15:58:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/301 "2023-10-04T05:04:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Didnt someone post a cite showing that the House rules- (which can be changed of course) require that the Speaker be a Member? That very well may be true. I am not sure. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/302 "2023-10-04T05:20:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Didnt someone post a cite showing that the House rules- (which can be changed of course) require that the Speaker be a Member? > **[Speaker of the United States House of Representatives](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives)** > > The speaker of the United States House of Representatives, commonly known as the speaker of the House, is the presiding officer of the United States House of Representatives. The office was established in 1789 by Article I, Section II, of the U.S. Constitution.\[a\] By custom and House rules, the speaker is the political and parliamentary leader of the House and is simultaneously its presiding officer, de facto leader of the body's majority party, and the institution's administrative head. Speake... > [@](#): > > The Constitution does not explicitly require the speaker to be an incumbent member of the House of Representatives, although every speaker thus far has been. Which I guess doesn’t address “House rules”, but such isn’t mentioned in the wiki article. There was a rather lengthy thread about electing Trump as Speaker not long ago, before McCarthy took the seat. I’d imagine this was all played out in that thread. [Here it is.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-as-speaker-of-the-house-need-not-even-win-an-election/947020) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/303 "2023-10-04T05:31:08Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Which I guess doesn’t address “House rules”, but such isn’t mentioned in the wiki article. It was right here in this very thread. But here it is- [https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPRACTICE-108/html/GPO-HPRACTICE-108-35.htm#:~:text=Under%20the%20modern%20practice%2C%20the,appoints%20tellers%20for%20this%20election](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPRACTICE-108/html/GPO-HPRACTICE-108-35.htm#:~:text=Under%20the%20modern%20practice%2C%20the,appoints%20tellers%20for%20this%20election). **Speaker Chosen from Members** ``` *Article I, section 2 of the Constitution directs that the House * ``` - choose its Speaker and other officers. The Speaker is the only House \* - officer who traditionally has been chosen from the sitting membership \* - of the House. Manual Sec. 26. The Constitution does not limit his \* - selection from among that class, but the practice has been followed \* - invariably. The Speaker’s term of office thus expires at the end of \* - his term of office as a Member, whereas the other House officers \* - continue in office ``until their successors are chosen and \* - qualified.‘’ Rule II clause 1; 1 Hinds Sec. 187.\* So the Constitution does not limit who it can be, but in actuality the House does. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/304 "2023-10-04T05:38:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So the Constitution does not limit who it can be, but in actuality the House does. Didn’t the Supreme Court rule against a line-item veto for the president because it was not in the constitution and congress could not add new restrictions/powers in the law (only as a constitutional amendment)? That would suggest congress adding restrictions like this would not be ok…but…they do get to make their own rules. I dunno. Thinking out loud. ETA: I see @squeegee provided a link to a previous discussion on this just above so best to go with that. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/305 "2023-10-04T06:35:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > One of Patrick Henry’s first official acts as Speaker Pro Tempore was to kick Nancy Pelosi out of her Capitol hideaway office space. Pelosi is in California for the funeral of Dianne Feinstein, and can’t retrieve her personal property Well, that didn’t take long, stay classy, pubs. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/306 "2023-10-04T07:54:42Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Well, that didn’t take long, stay classy, pubs. He wears a bowtie. Any male over the age of 12 who is wearing a bowtie and is not attending a wedding or performing in a barbershop quartet is automatically an asshole. (Cf. Carlson, Tucker.) ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/307 "2023-10-04T08:47:35Z")
Rep. Troy Nehls of Texas has indicated he intends to nominate Trump to the Speakership position. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-to-be-nominated-for-next-speaker-of-the-house/ar-AA1hFjfX#image=AA1hDzcg|1](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-to-be-nominated-for-next-speaker-of-the-house/ar-AA1hFjfX#image=AA1hDzcg%7C1) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/308 "2023-10-04T09:13:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He wears a bowtie. Any male over the age of 12 who is wearing a bowtie and is not attending a wedding or performing in a barbershop quartet is automatically an asshole. I’m sure many orchestral musicians would agree 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/309 "2023-10-04T09:19:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Or even if Congress was in session over that period. [It wasn’t.](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/DatesofSessionsofCongress.htm) It adjourned on September 27th and didn’t come back until January 10th (the day McCormack was elected). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/310 "2023-10-04T09:44:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He wears a bowtie. Any male over the age of 12 who is wearing a bowtie and is not attending a wedding or performing in a barbershop quartet is automatically an asshole. (Cf. Carlson, Tucker.) Bill Nye wears a bow tie, and he seems pretty cool. I’ve been known to wear one on occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/311 "2023-10-04T10:00:22Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Bill Nye wears a bow tie, and he seems pretty cool. I suppose a bowtie could be considered occupational attire for a science teacher. However, every single one of my science teachers in school was an unmitigated asshole, so the general rule remains true. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve been known to wear one on occasion. Can you sing tenor on “Goodbye My Coney Island Baby”? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/312 "2023-10-04T10:33:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@squeegee](#): > > > > Which I guess doesn’t address “House rules”, but such isn’t mentioned in the wiki article. > > It was right here in this very thread. > > But here it is- > [https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPRACTICE-108/html/GPO-HPRACTICE-108-35.htm#:~:text=Under%20the%20modern%20practice%2C%20the,appoints%20tellers%20for%20this%20election](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPRACTICE-108/html/GPO-HPRACTICE-108-35.htm#:~:text=Under%20the%20modern%20practice%2C%20the,appoints%20tellers%20for%20this%20election). > **Speaker Chosen from Members** > > ``` > *Article I, section 2 of the Constitution directs that the House * > > ``` > > - choose its Speaker and other officers. The Speaker is the only House \* > - officer who traditionally has been chosen from the sitting membership \* > - of the House. Manual Sec. 26. The Constitution does not limit his \* > - selection from among that class, but the practice has been followed \* > - invariably. The Speaker’s term of office thus expires at the end of \* > - his term of office as a Member, whereas the other House officers \* > - continue in office ``until their successors are chosen and \* > - qualified.‘’ Rule II clause 1; 1 Hinds Sec. 187.\* > > So the Constitution does not limit who it can be, but in actuality the House does. That excerpt makes it clear that a non-member Speaker would be unprecedented, but I can’t identify the wording that makes it impossible. A little help? Incidentally, if a non-member Speaker were to be a thing, what compensation would they receive? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/313 "2023-10-04T10:54:45Z")
> **[Gift Article: The Only Sin That Republicans Can’t Forgive](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2023/10/the-only-sin-that-republicans-cant-forgive/675534/?gift=QgO_LHw-skz7EqtMG0lcxk0MEkL4iDGX08_wyvPrWio&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > Kevin McCarthy’s demise continues a cycle among House Republicans that now traces back nearly half a century. The Atlantic says this is a gift link that will be good for two weeks. I don’t know if the site will ask you to register before you can read it. > The fall of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy today demonstrated again that the one sin that cannot be forgiven in the modern Republican Party is being seen as failing to fight the Democratic agenda by any means necessary. > > Of all the accusations that could be leveled against McCarthy, the notion that he was insufficiently committed to battling Democrats would not seem high on the list. As the GOP minority leader in the previous Congress, McCarthy voted to reject the 2020 election results in two key states… _Followed by several examples of how McCarthy has, in fact, stuck it to the Democrats as a good Republican should. The article continues:_ > Yet on two occasions this year, McCarthy **refused to risk chaos** in the domestic and global economy, choosing instead to **accept bipartisan deals with Democrats** , first to avoid default on the federal debt and then to keep the federal government open when it faced a possible shutdown last weekend. And that was simply too much collaboration for the eight hard-line conservative Republicans who voted to remove him today, making him the first speaker ever forced out by a motion to vacate the position. > > … My bold. His crimes: refusing to risk chaos and accepting deals with Democrats. It’s out there for everyone to see. This is where we are: > Yet McCarthy’s removal also underscored how the incentives in the modern GOP coalition now almost entirely push in one direction: toward greater conflict with Democrats and the embrace of **polarizing policies that reflect the priorities and grievances of the GOP base.** It’s no coincidence that critics accused McCarthy of not fighting hard enough for conservative demands at the same moment Trump and the other 2024 GOP presidential contestants are advancing militant ideas once considered politically radioactive, such as deploying the U.S. military into Mexico to attack drug cartels, ending birthright citizenship for the U.S.-born children of undocumented immigrants, ripping up civil-service protections for government workers, and dispatching the National Guard into blue cities to fight crime. > … My bold. The deplorables are giving the orders. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/314 "2023-10-04T11:10:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Can you sing tenor on “Goodbye My Coney Island Baby”? No, but I could try to sing “Goodbye My Coney Island Baby.” I don’t know the other part. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The deplorables are giving the orders. The firebombs are coming from inside the House. I’m really getting tired of these “interesting times” we’re living in right now. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/315 "2023-10-04T11:15:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That would suggest congress adding restrictions like this would not be ok…but…they do get to make their own rules. Exactly: the Constitution itself empowers them to make _internal_ rules. They can’t add qualifications to _be elected as a member of the House_ but they can make rules as to how to judge the fitness of someone already elected, on how the body is run and on who are its officers. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/316 "2023-10-04T11:31:45Z")
So what’s the Democrats’ strategy here? They had the option of saying “motion to vacate is stupid, we abstain” and letting Repubs take care of their own mess. It’s true I’m not much of a strategist, but bad outcomes seem likely, and good outcomes seem unlikely. - Hakeem Jeffries selected as Speaker in an R-dominated house? Unlikely. - Moderate R selected to cut deals with Democrats? Unlikely. - Republicans coalesce around MAGA faction to retain control? Likely. Naturally, they will cry about it, and the story (like every Republican story) will be “The Democrats forced us to become extremists.” We know from experience that many voters will buy that story. - Chaos reigns for indeterminate period, threatening shutdown, threatening Ukraine aid, preventing any governance at all? Seems likely. Of course, the cynical view is that Democrats will benefit in the next election, keeping the House by pointing to Republicans wallowing in chaos because they’re afraid to stand up to MAGA. That’s a high value play, but accordingly it’s also high risk due to the uncertainty and long time horizon. So what are Dems thinking here? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/317 "2023-10-04T11:52:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Of course, the cynical view is that Democrats will benefit in the next election, keeping the House by pointing to Republicans wallowing in chaos because they’re afraid to stand up to MAGA. How is this “cynical”? Serious question. When the other side screws up royally, one is expected to point that out when running for (re)election, and be rewarded by gaining at least some votes. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/318 "2023-10-04T11:53:12Z")
It’s worse than that. For years the GOP broadcast the message that the Democrats were the enemy of America. They knew it was just firebreathing bullshit, but it was very useful and effective in riling up the idiot base. Now, not only do they have vast swaths of the base who believe Democratic governance means a literal American apocalypse, but they have lawmakers being elected who grew up under that philosophical framework and who are true believers themselves. These people fully and truly believe that the Democrats are a force for evil that must be not only defeated but eradicated. I do not see any way for the country to return to anything resembling a state of collective sanity after having reached this degree of division. It’s utter madness, what is happening. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/319 "2023-10-04T12:09:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He wears a bowtie. Any male over the age of 12 who is wearing a bowtie and is not attending a wedding or performing in a barbershop quartet is automatically an asshole. (Cf. Carlson, Tucker.) My dad said the same thing about Senator Paul Simon ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958/320 "2023-10-04T12:11:20Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That excerpt makes it clear that a non-member Speaker would be unprecedented, but I can’t identify the wording that makes it impossible. A little help? > > Incidentally, if a non-member Speaker were to be a thing, what compensation would they receive? I agree, those rules do not state that a non-member cannot be Speaker. In past Speaker races, House members have nominated non-members for the Speakership and those nominations were not rejected as inelligible. What has come up in this thread is that House rules require that the list of Speakers pro tempore in the event of a vacancy must be drawn from sitting Members. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-impending-attempt-to-oust-speaker-mccarthy-10-1-2023-patrick-mchenry-is-now-speaker-pro-tempore-2023-10-03/990958.md?page=17)