# The implications of hell. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904 "2014-12-22T13:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/201 "2015-01-17T08:24:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And just to emphasize this, it doesn’t matter what _form_ the torture is in hell. You could claim that it’s simply detachment from god… But if that detachment _hurts_ us, then guess what: our loved ones in heaven _still know we’re suffering!_ It doesn’t matter whether it’s boiling in oil, [stubbing your toe repeatedly](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=936#comic), or guilt, or simply a disconnect from god, if it’s “the worst torture imaginable”, or even torture at all, then the problem simply is not resolved. You still have the same damn issue, regardless of how hard you try to make it _seem_ palatable. That’s a good point, but I’d like to draw a distinction. We all carry around the desire for vengeance: if we drop that burden, it’s possible to enter the kingdom of heaven; if not, it’s a self-inflicted exile - and I think that makes a big difference. I don’t know. I just can’t imagine my family and friends pining away for me in heaven. Surely they all have a long list of people they’d like to see again. Surely they would all enjoy meeting scientists, philosophers, poets from all over the world. Surely they would all be fascinated by famous and nonfamous saints from every historical epoch. Surely they all have burning questions for their creator. Of course, I like to think of myself as a scintillating individual; but there’s no way I could compete with all that. I think it’s more likely that those who would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven would be tormented by the realization that “their” people can get along just fine without them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/202 "2015-01-17T08:51:12Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > That’s a good point, but I’d like to draw a distinction. We all carry around the desire for vengeance: if we drop that burden, it’s possible to enter the kingdom of heaven; if not, it’s a self-inflicted exile - and I think that makes a big difference. > > I don’t know. I just can’t imagine my family and friends pining away for me in heaven. Surely they all have a long list of people they’d like to see again. Surely they would all enjoy meeting scientists, philosophers, poets from all over the world. Surely they would all be fascinated by famous and nonfamous saints from every historical epoch. Surely they all have burning questions for their creator. Of course, I like to think of myself as a scintillating individual; but there’s no way I could compete with all that. I think it’s more likely that those who would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven would be tormented by the realization that “their” people can get along just fine without them. And yet again and once more, the question I asked remains: _How would **you** feel if **you** were in Heaven and **your loved ones** were stuck in Hell for eternity_? ---
**Author:** ![hyperspaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@hyperspaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyperspaz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/203 "2015-01-20T18:15:19Z")
I’ve never met anyone who believes in Hell who isn’t positive they themselves are going to Heaven. FWIW, if I had to choose, I’d go with Catholicism on this one. Purgatory (enduring punishment for your sins and then going to Heaven after you’ve done your time) seems a lot more in line with a loving God than the Hell/Heaven dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/204 "2015-01-20T18:24:59Z")
> [@hyperspaz](#): > > I’ve never met anyone who believes in Hell who isn’t positive they themselves are going to Heaven. > > FWIW, if I had to choose, I’d go with Catholicism on this one. Purgatory (enduring punishment for your sins and then going to Heaven after you’ve done your time) seems a lot more in line with a loving God than the Hell/Heaven dichotomy. Only those who die in the state of grace but are not quite holy enough get to serve time in Purgatory, I believe. It’s like a finishing school for Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/205 "2015-01-20T18:53:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > When dealing with a religion that deals with a judgement, and an afterlife with infinite reward vs infinite punishment, the most religious people are the most sane of the religious people. Your beliefs are extreme - your time on Earth is nothing compared to your time in eternity. Your entire life should be lived doing everything you possibly can to ensure that you pass god’s test. You should be fully justified - and not only that, obligated - to carry out what you thought to be your god’s commands with every waking thought and every waking moment. > > The moderately religious are far less sane. They acknowledge the stakes, and yet act as if they aren’t a big deal. This is a course of action that is simply not based in logic or sanity and is incredibly risky and callous … I presume you are making these claims on the supposition that these afterlives are objectively real, and that realness is well known and understood by everyone, religious or not? If that’s correct, then I would agree that your conclusions are correct. But if not, they go out the window. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/206 "2015-01-20T19:03:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I presume you are making these claims on the supposition that these afterlives are objectively real, and that realness is well known and understood by everyone, religious or not? > > If that’s correct, then I would agree that your conclusions are correct. > > But if not, they go out the window. I think he was speaking more of being internally logical-if you truly believed that life on Earth was short and that you faced an eternity in Hell vs. an eternity in Heaven depending on how you obeyed the laws set forth by your particular religion, why would you take any chances at all? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/207 "2015-01-20T19:06:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think he was speaking more of being internally logical-if you truly believed that life on Earth was short and that you faced an eternity in Hell vs. an eternity in Heaven depending on how you obeyed the laws set forth by your particular religion, why would you take any chances at all? This may be, but something about using the terms sane, saner, etc. as as comparators in this context is really bothersome to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/208 "2015-01-20T19:09:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This may be, but something about using the terms sane, saner, etc. as as comparators in this context is really bothersome to me. Same here. I think “internally consistent” is a better term. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/209 "2015-01-20T19:52:20Z")
Side question from a bonafide non religious person. Are there religions that ACTUALLY believe in the literal definition of “Hell”? i.e. a horned red devil, lake of fire, trident, et al? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/210 "2015-01-20T21:15:24Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Side question from a bonafide non religious person. Are there religions that ACTUALLY believe in the literal definition of “Hell”? i.e. a horned red devil, lake of fire, trident, et al? Absolutely. I don’t know whether it goes as far as the physical shapes of the demons, but the whole “lake of fire” burning forever stuff, yeah. It’s been a long time since I was a Catholic, but AFAIK that’s what they still believe too. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/211 "2015-01-20T21:19:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Absolutely. I don’t know whether it goes as far as the physical shapes of the demons, but the whole “lake of fire” burning forever stuff, yeah. It’s been a long time since I was a Catholic, but AFAIK that’s what they still believe too. Mind boggling that a rational intelligent human can believe that… truly. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/212 "2015-01-20T21:27:03Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Mind boggling that a rational intelligent human can believe that… truly. :smack: Now there’s a loaded supposition … ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/213 "2015-01-20T21:52:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Now there’s a loaded supposition … Guilty :o ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/214 "2015-01-25T11:16:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And yet again and once more, the question I asked remains: _How would **you** feel if **you** were in Heaven and **your loved ones** were stuck in Hell for eternity_? I’m of two minds about this one. On the one hand, it has occasionally happened in this life that I’ve been talking to old friends or engrossed in a particularly good book and suddenly caught sight of a clock and been shocked at how late it has gotten. If I were in communion with God and the saints, in a place where no one ever gets tired or hungry or needs to use the bathroom or go to work tomorrow, wouldn’t I lose track of time indefinitely? But on the other hand, I am commanded to love all of my brothers and sisters. That means that I ought to - and in heaven I _would_ - desire the happiness of my worst enemy as much as that of my dearest friend. Wouldn’t I lament over the damned as [Jesus laments over Jerusalem](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23:37&version=NIV)? I think it would ultimately depend on whether or not I could believe that free will is a good idea, even though it means giving people the power to make themselves miserable. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/215 "2015-01-25T11:36:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I think most Christians would say your scenario wouldn’t happen, because anguish is impossible in heaven. The same way a 4-sided circle is impossible in our world. > > Which presents it own set of problems, of course. If pain is impossible in Heaven, by what mechanism is this possible? Do souls in heaven have free will? Or do they all become Jesus Drones incapable of changing their minds about him? > > If free will doesn’t exist in Heaven, then why does God put such a premium on it outside of Heaven? I would observe that much of the pain in our world is caused by the strong preying on the weak, so that pain could be greatly reduced by eliminating people’s ability to hurt each other. Now this is pure speculation, but suppose every soul were enclosed in a bubble, and bubbles were permeable if and only if a mutually beneficial relationship would ensue. The loving and giving would experience increased freedom and happiness while the greedy and selfish would be more (perhaps completely) restricted and isolated. Happy people might feel sorry for the unhappy ones, but everyone would see the justice of it. Again, that’s pure speculation (BS, if you prefer); but if God can create an entire universe ex nihilo, he shouldn’t have any problem coming up with a solution at least as good as that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/216 "2015-01-25T15:00:14Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > I would observe that much of the pain in our world is caused by the strong preying on the weak, so that pain could be greatly reduced by eliminating people’s ability to hurt each other. But the type of pain we’re talking about derives from empathy and love, not predation. If my heathen sister is suffering in Hell, it should be impossible for me to be happy in Heaven unless my capacity to feel her pain vicariously has been disabled somehow and I no longer have a bond to her. Even if I could tell myself her suffering is a product of her free will, I just don’t see how that would stop me from worry about her or longing for her company. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/217 "2015-01-25T17:57:11Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Side question from a bonafide non religious person. Are there religions that ACTUALLY believe in the literal definition of “Hell”? i.e. a horned red devil, lake of fire, trident, et al? Christianity - lake of fire, yes, but the horns and trident, to my understanding, are cultural depictions with no Scriptural basis. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/218 "2015-01-25T23:37:16Z")
The trident is a pitchfork, which is a not unreasonable extrapolation from the description of pitch. (Isaiah 34:9) The horns…not so much. Lots of people suggest they came from Greco-Roman depictions of satyrs, fauns, Pan, and so on. I was recently listening to a Bible radio show where the preacher was lecturing against the conventional depiction of Angels. I thought it was a bit of a pity, as the wings of Angels is one of the loveliest of all visual metaphors in traditional Christian iconography. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/219 "2015-01-26T06:56:39Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > I’m of two minds about this one. And yet neither mind seems capable of giving a direct answer to a simple question. I’ll not bother you again about this issue. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904/220 "2015-01-29T07:01:10Z")
Well, this wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of overthinking things; I’ll try to do a better job next time we meet. Until then, take care. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-implications-of-hell/707904.md?page=12)