# The Independent Republic of Bouvet Island **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391 "2011-05-10T14:04:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/1 "2011-05-10T14:04:14Z")
Not sure if this is really GQ, but I guess I’m not sure where’s better, for now. [Bouvet Island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_Island) is an unihabited, pretty much unapproachable, island located between Antarctica and South Africa. It belongs to, of all nations, Norway. As far as I can tell, there are no reasons for any commercial interest in the island. Norway just has it because…they do. A Norwegian ship landed there, they claimed it, it’s theirs. Now, if some significant militia group decided that they were going to take over the island and declare it their own country - what would Norway do about it? Other than the fact that it’s bad form to let anyone walk in and take your country’s territory, is the Norwegian navy going to fight for a rock that has no Norwegian citizens in residence, and no exploitable resources? Does Norway have any military units operating from bases anywhere close to Bouvet - and by “close” I mean anywhere south of the equator? (Or perhaps they’d depend on NATO’s mutual defense structure to use UK units based in the Falkland Islands?) In a nutshell, what’s in it for Norway to have that remote and mostly (if not totally) useless island be their territory, and how far are they likely to go to keep it that way? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/2 "2011-05-10T15:02:18Z")
Norway gained Bouvet Island during the same decade we were laying claim to every bit of the Arctic and Antarctic\* that was available, and some that weren’t. In part this was motivated by Norway’s economic interests in whaling and sealing, in part it was an extension of the spirit of Arctic and Antarctic exploration a decade after everything had been done, and in part it was pure nationalism. Bouvet turned out to be utterly useless, except for giving us a claim to a large bit of ocean around it that I don’t think is used for anything at the moment, and the current Norwegian focus is on research and protecting a vulnerable ecology. If anyone decided to take over the island and declare it their own country Norway would: Not accept the claim. Demand that no other nation accept the claim. Recommend they leave. Beyond that I expect we would: Leave them there to play house if they weren’t doing any harm. Find the best approach to remove the occupants that didn’t wreck the island if they were a threat to the environment. Perhaps send down a vessel to blockade the island. But why would anyone want to take it over in the first place? \*(Bouvet is technically to far north to be part the Antarctic.) ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/3 "2011-05-10T15:10:07Z")
> [@naita](#): > > But why would anyone want to take it over in the first place? Extremely isolated…uninhabited…difficult to access…what better place exists for any supervillain to build his/her secret lair? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/4 "2011-05-10T15:15:59Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Extremely isolated…uninhabited…difficult to access…what better place exists for any supervillain to build his/her secret lair? Good think OBL’s not around to be reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/5 "2011-05-10T15:39:07Z")
> [@naita](#): > > …But why would anyone want to take it over in the first place?.. An answer that comes to mind might be for the [Exclusive Economic Zone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone) that comes with land ownership. Per the wiki, the EEZ entitles the owner to certain exclusive rights, within a 200 mile radius of the shoreline. Often, with oil and fisheries, those rights have significant economic value. See, e.g., the Spratley Islands. Or the fishery fights in the North Atlantic. However, for Bouvet, I don’t know if the fishery has any real value, and messing around with Google Earth doesn’t show me any sea bottom closer than around 7500 feet from the surface. True, you can drill for oil that deep now, set up a [FPSO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_Production_Storage_and_Offloading), etc…but it’s a pain and therefore expensive. And, being in the Furious Fifties, the weather & waves down there are excruciatingly unpleasant, which makes everything even more expensive. Finally, you’re a long way from anything there, which makes supplying the drillship and FPSO a PITA, and, again, very expensive. So, it’s probably a case of “just because.” I believe Norway’s Antarctica claims in Queen Maud Land have nothing to do with Bouvet; they just happen to lie within the same longitude boundaries, and so losing Bouvet wouldn’t cripple any claims that Norway has in Queen Maud Land. This might be important if the Antarctic Treaty ever got rescinded and large, economically exploitable mineral deposits were discovered in Antarctica RE: the what Norway would do if it was taken? question. What happened with regards to NATO during the Falkland Islands crisis in 1982? Could the U.K. have relied on its NATO privileges to obligate the other NATO countries to assist it against Argentina? I understand that, for national pride and other reasons, that wasn’t done, but could the U.K. have used the NATO treaty to force other signatories to assist it? ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/6 "2011-05-10T17:22:11Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > An answer that comes to mind might be for the [Exclusive Economic Zone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone) that comes with land ownership. Per the wiki, the EEZ entitles the owner to certain exclusive rights, within a 200 mile radius of the shoreline. Often, with oil and fisheries, those rights have significant economic value. See, e.g., the Spratley Islands. Or the fishery fights in the North Atlantic. Don’t islands have to be inhabited (or at least habitable) to have an EEZ? ETA: I looked it up, and [UNCLOS Part VIII](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea/Part_VIII) says: > [@](#): > > Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf. I don’t know if that would apply to Bouvet Island. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/7 "2011-05-10T17:37:00Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > RE: the what Norway would do if it was taken? question. What happened with regards to NATO during the Falkland Islands crisis in 1982? Could the U.K. have relied on its NATO privileges to obligate the other NATO countries to assist it against Argentina? I understand that, for national pride and other reasons, that wasn’t done, but could the U.K. have used the NATO treaty to force other signatories to assist it? NATO’s charter only applies to Northern Europe, North America, the Mediterranean, and the North Atlantic north of the Tropic of Cancer: > [@NATO Treaty](#): > > Article 6 (1) > > For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: > > ``` > * on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; > * on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer. > > ``` The UK couldn’t invoke NATO during the Falklands War because of this; although other NATO member nations can offer their support of their own volition; they’re just not required to by treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/8 "2011-05-10T18:09:32Z")
The “rocks” portion of UNCLOS Article 121, I thought applied to such rocks as were awash or submerged at high tide, like Kingman Reef? I didn’t think it applied to islands the size of Bouvet. I’d love to see some UNCLOS Arbitration rulings on what exactly is a “rock” vs. an uninhabited island. Nevertheless, [Norway did petition the UN to apply the continental shelf definition (which allows for an EEZ up to 350 miles from the baseline) to Bouvet](http://www.un.org/depts/los/clcs_new/submissions_files/nor30_09/nor2009_executivesummary.pdf), so I imagine Bouvet is considered a EEZ of Norway. .PDF warning. V. slow load times. [Here is the chart](http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/mzn_s/mzn53.pdf) deposited with UNCLOS detailing Norway’s claim to Bouvet’s EEZ. (.PDF, and the UN’s server is glacial.) [Link to UNCLOS listing](http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/STATEFILES/NOR.htm) of all charts of Norwegian EEZ’s deposited with UNCLOS. > [@](#): > > M.Z.N.53. 2005 LOS of 20 April 2005: Deposit of the list of geographical coordinates of points defining the outer limits of the territorial sea around Bouvet island together with the list of geographical coordinates of points as specified in the Regulations of 25 February 2005 relating to the baseline determining the extent of the territorial sea around Bouvet island, as laid down by Royal Decree of 25 February 2005, pursuant to the Act of 27 June 2003 relating to Norway’s territorial waters and contiguous zone. > > Originals of deposited geographical coordinates of points > Relevant articles of UNCLOS: 16(2) > LOSIC No. 21 > Royal Decree of 25 February 2005 in Law of the Sea Bulletin No. 60 Hmmm, maybe it wasn’t a EEZ until they did this, as I thought there was a chart deposit requirement in order to claim the EEZ? Looks like someone might have found oil after all…especially considering this quote from the Executive Summary of the Continental Shelf Submission of Norway: > [@](#): > > The preparation of the present submission began after Norway’s ratification of the Convention in 1996. Acquisition of seismic and bathymetric data, as well as processing, analysis and interpretation of data have continued until this year. The preparation has been carried out by the **Norwegian Petroleum Directorate** , [Emphasis added] an independent agency under the Royal Ministry of Petroleum and Energy. The Directorate is Norway’s expert body for offshore geology and geophysics Thanks for the NATO quotes/links, **wevets**. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/9 "2011-05-10T19:06:05Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Extremely isolated…uninhabited…difficult to access…what better place exists for any supervillain to build his/her secret lair? Ron: “Oh this place just screams lair. Look at all the chrome. And you’ve got doors that go ‘whoosh’”. Senor Senior, Sr.: “I like the ‘whoosh.’ It’s the door saying, ‘I am closed.’” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/10 "2011-05-12T08:38:35Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Extremely isolated…uninhabited…difficult to access…what better place exists for any supervillain to build his/her secret lair? Wouldn’t be very secret if you declared it a republic now, would it? If you wanted it secret you’d leave us Norwegians thinking everything was hunky-dory. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/11 "2011-05-12T08:57:05Z")
lease it to south africa for use during underground nuclear tests. or maybe to the french. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/12 "2011-05-12T09:22:33Z")
A complete highjack but what would it take to make an island like that tolerably habitable? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/13 "2011-05-12T10:11:36Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > A complete highjack but what would it take to make an island like that tolerably habitable? That depends on how you define tolerably habitable, but I’d say what you need is a change in climate. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/14 "2011-05-12T11:49:10Z")
There’s some precedent for reactions to claiming an island that’s not yours. We can start with the Falklands War of 1982. Yes. the Falklands are much more economically important, less isolated, less hostile a climate, and the dispute was between two nations with large militaries. But, still, it’s just silly to expect a nation to roll over and play dead for anyone. Yes, the republic of Sealand still endures, but other sea platform nations have been reclaimed by the closest nation. When the island of Surtsey rose from the waters around Iceland, before it was considered safe to land, French reporters from _Paris Match_ magazine landed and planted a French flag, as a joke. The Icelandic government didn’t find the joke funny. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/15 "2011-05-12T15:03:26Z")
You’d have to make sure the vast underground labyrinth was clear of Predators and maybe Aliens as well! That’s where the first Alien vs Predator movie was set… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/16 "2011-05-12T15:46:33Z")
You know, the island doesn’t sound that nice: > [@wikipedia](#): > > Bouvet Island has no ports or harbours, only offshore anchorages, and is therefore difficult to approach. Wave action has created a very steep coast. The easiest way to access the island is with a helicopter from a ship. The glaciers form a thick ice layer falling in high cliffs into the sea or onto the black beaches of volcanic sand. The 29.6 km (18.4 miles) of coastline are often surrounded by pack ice. The highest point on the island is called Olavtoppen, and has a peak 780 m (2,559 ft) above sea level. A lava shelf on the island’s west coast formed between 1955 and 1958 and provides a nesting site for birds. > > Because of the harsh climate and ice-bound terrain, vegetation is limited to lichens and mosses. If you want to camp out on a few square miles of lava fields, 93% of which is covered by permanent ice, knock yourself out. This is a Straight Dope perennial. Every few months, someone has the bright idea of finding an uninhabited island and setting up their own country. Except the problem with setting up your own country is that nobody will care. You’re free to declare your living room a sovereign nation, and you know what the United States Government will do about it? Absolutely nothing. Unless you stop paying your taxes, or try to build a machine gun tower without a permit, or grow pot, or shoot people who set foot on your territory. Since no one else will recognize your country, the value of the exclusive economic zone around “your” island is zero, because when Exxon sets up a drilling platform they aren’t going to pay you anything, they’ll pay Norway, or whatever actual country claims the islands. Other than that, you’re free to move to any uninhabited area in the world and set up camp there. Just expect to be arrested if you violate the laws of the real country that claims the territory, if they ever find out about you and if they bother. As for moving in with a militia and defending yourself against the police force of the claiming country, well, how are these militia people getting paid? What do they eat? Where do they live? How do they get resupplied? These uninhabited islands are uninhabited for a reason, they don’t suddenly become economically valuable just because there’s no law enforcement there. Countries are fictions that only exist because everyone agrees to act as if they exist. So you can’t create an independent country just by proclaiming one, you have to convince everyone else to agree that you have an independent country. And why would they do that? What’s in it for them? ---
**Author:** ![spikebrennan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@spikebrennan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spikebrennan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/17 "2011-05-12T17:23:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, the island doesn’t sound that nice: > > This is a Straight Dope perennial. Every few months, someone has the bright idea of finding an uninhabited island and setting up their own country. Except the problem with setting up your own country is that nobody will care. You’re free to declare your living room a sovereign nation, and you know what the United States Government will do about it? Absolutely nothing. Unless you stop paying your taxes, or try to build a machine gun tower without a permit, or grow pot, or shoot people who set foot on your territory. For that matter, even uninhabited islands are claimed by at least some country. If memory serves, the only land areas on Earth that are not claimed by any country are a wedge of land in Antarctica (which nobody wants because it’s inaccessible, even by Antarctic standards) and Bir Tawil, a small quadrilateral of land on the Egypt-Sudan border. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/18 "2011-05-12T19:08:45Z")
But what would you call yourself? Bouveteers? Bouvetites? Bouvetees? And most important why does it have its own Internet code - [.bv](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bv) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/19 "2011-05-12T20:53:53Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > Bir Tawil, a small quadrilateral of land on the Egypt-Sudan border. Heh, just looked that up. What a genuinely bizarre situation! “No, feel free Sudan, you can have it” “Why no, Egypt, it’s all yours!”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391/20 "2011-05-12T21:13:40Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Extremely isolated…uninhabited…difficult to access…what better place exists for any supervillain to build his/her secret lair? Too cold. No volcanoes. Difficult to establish supply lines. Insufficient natural resources. No population to enslave. Too near Atlantis. Sorry, not happening. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-independent-republic-of-bouvet-island/581391.md?page=2)