# the Individual or the Collective?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051 "2012-12-24T21:07:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/181 "2013-01-10T20:07:05Z")
human: have you ever talked to people from the occupy movement? or did i imagine them and they aren’t real? lol ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/182 "2013-01-10T20:09:08Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > look at #2 plank: “progressive heavy income tax” ie. re-distribution. Austerity _still_ does not mean higher taxes. It means cuts in government services. > [@](#): > > are you defending Marxism?? No. I’m correcting your mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/183 "2013-01-10T20:09:32Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > so, please go ahead and mention various aircraft, use ‘guilt by association’ fallacies, single out anyone who happens to a different opinion other than the one sanctioned by the party, which is: “what socialism?; what collectivism? where? theres no such thing… pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, move along, theres nothing to see here” > > you hear that all the time: ‘who are you with?’ … ‘what group do you belong to?’ > people identify themselves more and more by the role they play, who they are affiliated with, not by who they are as an individual… > its about how they fit into the group. This is projection at its finest. You are accusing people of belonging to an overly-broad organized group while decrying others who are supposedly doing the same. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/184 "2013-01-10T20:11:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t think this guy sounds extremely paranoid, not to say crazy? > > There isn’t a fact or citation anywhere in this rambling entry, not that that’s a surprise. who cares? so what if he is? what difference does it make? some of the things he said (opinions) are spot on. sorry, i dont fall for the ‘attacking the messenger’ type fallacies that run wild around here, and the scapegoating. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/185 "2013-01-10T20:14:09Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > who cares? so what if he is? what difference does it make? It’d make him a bit less than reliable. He doesn’t offer any facts or any reason to believe what he’s saying. I guess it’s appealing if you already agree with him, but if you don’t, it’s not just unconvincing - it has no content and doesn’t say much of anything. The post goes “A BUNCH OF BAD STUFF THAT I THINK COULD HAPPEN… COLLECTIVISM!” > [@](#): > > some of the things he said are spot on. Which ones, and why? Maybe you can provide the facts and reasoning he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/186 "2013-01-10T20:14:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Austerity _still_ does not mean higher taxes. It means cuts in government services. > > No. I’m correcting your mistakes. heavy progressive income tax is one of 10 planks of the communist manifesto (as is a private central bank, that goes along with it). what mistake did you correct? please go read Marx, because you obv havent, or your reading comprehension needs some work? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/187 "2013-01-10T20:14:25Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Have you stopped beating your wife? :mad: I’ll stop beating her when she wises up, thank you very much! ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/188 "2013-01-10T20:16:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I it’s not just unconvincing - it has no content and doesn’t say much of anything. so you are still taking about it, why??? lol so interesting… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/189 "2013-01-10T20:17:09Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > heavy progressive income tax is one of 10 planks of the communist manifesto (as is a private central bank, that goes along with it). “Heavy progressive income tax” is not the same as higher taxes, though. > [@](#): > > what mistake did you correct? You keep calling austerity “higher taxes” when it has nothing to do with higher taxes. It means deep cuts in government services and other programs and benefits. > [@wildorchid](#): > > so you are still taking about it, why??? Because you continue to post about it as if it meant anything. I didn’t bring it up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/190 "2013-01-10T20:17:49Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > [Actually, denying the reality of Collectivism is already a powerful collectivist movement in America. It has been for some time.](http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/ready-lets-pretend-collectivism-doesnt-exist/) :rolleyes: Dude, be careful who you cite. That’s [Jon Rappoport.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Rappoport) He’s a nutcase-crank like Alex Jones, or worse. > [@](#): > > Although his main focus over these years has been the power of the imagination and creativity, he is most often cited and interviewed as an authority on conspiracies and global elites, the work of the latter, as Rappoport sees it, in general being implemented through the seven global cartels, which he identifies as the government, military, money, intelligence, energy, media, and medical. Topics that he has reported on include medical fraud, deep politics, and health issues . . . . > > Rappoport is presently vice-president of the publishing house Truth Seeker Company, Inc.[1] and authors and sells audio CDs on magic,[2] past life regression[3] and development of paranormal abilities.[4] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/191 "2013-01-10T20:21:34Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > ] moral relativism ; right and wrong is negotiable. :dubious: Yes, and? Morally, you need to start thinking in terms of [consequentialism,](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Consequentialism) not [deontology.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Deontology) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/192 "2013-01-10T20:22:39Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > It’s not like one day all americans have X values, and they wake up the next day and they all have B values. thats not what i’m saying… > I’m not saying that traditional American values have 100% disappeared. (which you seem to be arguing against, although i never claimed this, i’m talking about the _direction that things are obviously moving in if one opens ones eyes._ > what i \*[am/I] saying is that they are eroding . . . **Evolving,** not eroding. The direction you’re describing is **better.** ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/193 "2013-01-10T20:22:47Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > look at #2 plank: “progressive heavy income tax” ie. re-distribution. > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Communist\_Manifesto > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity \<\<\< ‘increase in taxes’; first sentence. Ohhh aren’t you the little dissembler. Actually the 1st line is placed below with your cherry picking bolded. > [@](#): > > In economics, austerity refers to a policy of deficit-cutting by lowering spending via a reduction in the amount of benefits and public services provided.[1] Austerity policies are often used by governments to try to reduce their deficit spending[2] and are sometimes coupled with **increases in taxes** to demonstrate long-term fiscal solvency to creditors ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/194 "2013-01-10T20:26:02Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > ] austerity means more taxation… what could be more collectivist than that? straight out of Marx. Nationalization of the means of production, that’s what could be more collectivist than that. Which is on the table nowhere. **Sometimes taxes need to be increased.** You don’t need to be any kind of Marxist or collectivist to see that, and those making the relevant decisions are not such. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/195 "2013-01-10T20:28:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Evolving,** not eroding. The direction you’re describing is **better.** ok, you finally came out of the closet. why don’t you move to N Korea then, if its so much better?? I love how people argue for collectivism but still have a too much sense of shame to come out and admit it, and they want to just apologize for it without being accountable for that. you really think Mao was a step in the right direction for humanity? (the great leap forward) if youre an environmentalist, i could see that, since he cleansed the earth of so many carbon footprints… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great\_Leap\_Forward ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/196 "2013-01-10T20:30:18Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > why don’t you move to N Korea then, if its so much better?? Would you mind quoting where **BrainGlutton** said anything good about North Korea? I must’ve missed that post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/197 "2013-01-10T20:30:44Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > sorry, i dont fall for the ‘attacking the messenger’ type fallacies that run wild around here, and the scapegoating. You mean [_Argumentum ad hominem,_](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem) but be careful there: [It’s not always a fallacy.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405245) The most important piece of information in any message is the name of the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/198 "2013-01-10T20:33:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nationalization of the means of production, that’s what could be more collectivist than that. Which is on the table nowhere. **Sometimes taxes need to be increased.** You don’t need to be any kind of Marxist or collectivist to see that, and those making the relevant decisions are not such. no, federal reserve= marxism IRS= marxism go read ‘the Communist Manifesto’ instead of auto-denying it. put research before conclusions, instead of the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/199 "2013-01-10T20:33:47Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > heavy progressive income tax is one of 10 planks of the communist manifesto (as is a private central bank, that goes along with it). And [Hitler Ate Sugar.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar) And conceived the _Autobahnen_ system which Eisenhower, conquering his way through Germany, was so impressed by that he copied it for America later, which is why we have the Interstate Highway System. Which does not make it a Nazi system, nor Eisenhower a Nazi sympathizer. If Marx said something was a good idea, that does not make it a bad idea, nor does necessarily it make it a Communist idea. Marx also called for public schooling. Good idea. And so is progressive income tax, and so is a central bank. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/200 "2013-01-10T20:35:23Z")
brain, I suggest you read the George Orwell book 1984, of which i posted a link to a free pdf. maybe it will cure that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=11)