# the Individual or the Collective?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051 "2012-12-24T21:07:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/201 "2013-01-10T20:36:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And [url=[Hitler Ate Sugar - TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar)] > If Marx said something was a good idea, that does not make it a bad idea, nor does necessarily it make it a Communist idea. ok, the 10 planks of the ‘Communist Manifesto’ aren’t communist. well played. next you will tell me that the bible isn’t christian?? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/202 "2013-01-10T20:38:44Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > brain, I suggest you read the George Orwell book 1984, of which i posted a link to a free pdf. > > maybe it will cure that. I find it sort of ironic that you’re linking to something that violates the individual copyrights on the book. I’ve deleted the link. Don’t do that again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/203 "2013-01-10T20:40:23Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > next you will tell me that the bible isn’t christian?? At least half of it is Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/204 "2013-01-10T20:40:47Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > ok, you finally came out of the closet. What closet? I’ve always self-ID’d around here as a progressive or social democrat, sometimes even as a democratic socialist. Never as a Marxist, I have little more respect for Marx than you do. > [@wildorchid](#): > > why don’t you move to N Korea then, if its so much better?? No, **Sweden** is better, at least going by [Gini coefficient,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) see [this map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GINI_retouched_legend.gif) and study it; you’ll find a pretty clear correlation – with some anomalies, the lower a country’s Gini coefficient, the better things in general go there. But I won’t go to Sweden, I’ll stay here and try to make **America** better. Go thou and do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/205 "2013-01-10T20:41:59Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > brain, I suggest you read the George Orwell book 1984, of which i posted a link to a free pdf. > > maybe it will cure that. I know, see post #167. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/206 "2013-01-10T20:42:08Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > brain, I suggest you read the George Orwell book 1984, of which i posted a link to a free pdf. > > maybe it will cure that. You’re aware that Orwell was actually a socialist, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/207 "2013-01-10T20:43:18Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > ok, the 10 planks of the ‘Communist Manifesto’ aren’t communist. > > well played. > > next you will tell me that the bible isn’t christian?? Most of it is Jewish, actually. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/208 "2013-01-10T20:46:01Z")
from an informal panel of experts here, i’m seeing a lot of this… www.nowandfutures.com/spew\_tools.html ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/209 "2013-01-10T20:47:21Z")
Yes, we know: you have lots and lots of complaints about the way everyone respond to your posts. If only you were doing any better. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/210 "2013-01-10T20:49:08Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You’re aware that Orwell was actually a socialist, right? of course, and a high level one, too… how else did he know what he was painting a picture of?? he wasn’t using his imagination. he was in elite society, and had access to elite think-tank types, social engineers… he knew the game plan, and leaked it out in the form of fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/211 "2013-01-10T20:50:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, we know: you have lots and lots of complaints about the way everyone respond to your posts. If only you were doing any better. Well he messed up using a wikipedia quote on austerity in such an obvious manner I assumed it was intentional. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/212 "2013-01-10T20:50:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, we know: you have lots and lots of complaints about the way everyone respond to your posts. If only you were doing any better. ok, show me quotes of some of my logical fallacies, then, and correct me. having an opinion isn’t a fallacy. the austerity article very clearly says ‘increase in taxes’. austerity can also mean ‘doing without’ in a general sense. (ie. living like a monk) whether you are getting less, or giving away more, the final result will be reflected on the balance sheet the same. if you add $100 to your income, or subtract $100 from your expenses, the difference is?.. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/213 "2013-01-10T20:57:55Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > he wasn’t using his imagination. > he was in elite society, and had access to elite think-tank types, social engineers… > he knew the game plan, and leaked it out in the form of fiction. More onsense. he was commenting on what he knew about the Soviet Union - something other socialists of the time often weren’t willing to face. > [@wildorchid](#): > > show me quotes of some of my logical fallacies, then, and correct me. You’re very free with ad hominems, you haven’t supported your positions with facts, you’ve made all kinds of mistakes about history and philosophy, you exclude the middle at every opportunity, and of course when people correct you, you ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/214 "2013-01-10T21:00:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Well he messed up using a wikipedia quote on austerity in such an obvious manner I assumed it was intentional. the activity in this thread just proves my point for me over and over… i’m ‘he’, obv… (speaking of someone in the 3rd person while present is fairly rude, btw). I’m the one to be singled out; i dont go along with the ‘party line’… an individual straying from the narrative endorsed by the collective must be scapegoated… IMO, you mostly display collectivist attitudes. you all contridict your claims with your own behaviour. collectivists are the ones who single out, and scapegoat. individualists don’t do this… they say ‘interesting opinion’, and respect others views… i win this thread. what have you all cited, except for your own unfounded denials, and claims of yourselves being authorities on the subject?? /thread ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/215 "2013-01-10T21:03:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > More onsense. he was commenting on what he knew about the Soviet Union - something other socialists of the time often weren’t willing to face. > > You’re very free with ad hominems, you haven’t supported your positions with facts, you’ve made all kinds of mistakes about history and philosophy, you exclude the middle at every opportunity, and of course when people correct you, you ignore it. specific quotes please… i’m expecting you to substantiate these. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/216 "2013-01-10T21:10:21Z")
what i’ve actually said, and the words that are getting out in my mouth ITT are 2 different things? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/217 "2013-01-10T21:21:11Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > the activity in this thread just proves my point for me over and over… > > i’m ‘he’, obv… (speaking of someone in the 3rd person while present is fairly rude, btw). I wasn’t talking to you, I was referencing you. Now as a rugged individualist I’ll go out on a limb and say your ideas, evidence and understanding is weak and unformed. Unfortunately since a number of other rugged individualist have come to the same opinion I guess I’m a collectivist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/218 "2013-01-10T21:23:25Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > specific quotes please… > > i’m expecting you to substantiate these. I’m not reviewing five pages of your posts to show you things you wrote yourself. Like I said, you don’t pay attention when people point out you’re mistaken anyway. To that end _I_ may have been wrong about taxes and European austerity since I’m seeing reports there were tax increases. But there’s nothing Marxist about cutting government services, eliminating social programs, cutting workers’ vacations and raising the retirement age. Doubly so when it’s happening in response to this kind of fiscal crisis. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/219 "2013-01-10T21:34:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not reviewing five pages of your posts to show you things you wrote yourself. Like I said, you don’t pay attention when people point out you’re mistaken anyway. To that end _I_ may have been wrong about taxes and European austerity since I’m seeing reports there were tax increases. But there’s nothing Marxist about cutting government services, eliminating social programs, cutting workers’ vacations and raising the retirement age. Doubly so when it’s happening in response to this kind of fiscal crisis. so i’m wrong, but you can’t quote me where i’m wrong?? (oh, i dont need to have been wrong, just to have the herd say such about myself ; that suffices? that was the delphi-method style consensus of a panel of ‘experts’, lol) ] yes, there is something Marxist about it; \>\>\> 2 classes: the people, and the polit-buro. no middle class.. the people get dumped on. they get promises, and thats it/ they live at subsistance level with no oppurtunity of upward mobility; the elite .01% live in luxury. this is the direction we are headed in. not saying we are there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/220 "2013-01-10T21:40:51Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > so i’m wrong, but you can’t quote me where i’m wrong?? Can. Won’t bother. > [@](#): > > yes, there is something Marxist about it; \>\>\> 2 classes: the people, and the polit-buro. no middle class.. > the people get dumped on. they get promises, and thats it/ they live at subsistance level with no oppurtunity of upward mobility; the elite .01% live in luxury. > this is the direction we are headed in. not saying we are there yet. Is this supposed to be about austerity? What are you talking about? \>\>\>\> ]]]] / [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=12)