# the Individual or the Collective?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051 "2012-12-24T21:07:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/161 "2013-01-08T22:20:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … As for “collectivism,” why, in the current political climate, Congress won’t even pass such a sorry half-assed stopgap measure as a health-reform package with a “public option” in it, and the package they **did** pass sparked the rise of the global-embarrassment Tea Party! No, the Tea thing started ramping up in early '09, long before we had any concrete details on the AHCA. They were screaming at townhalls that summer, while congress was still wrestling with the bill’s content. By the time the president signed the final draft, the Tea to-do was over a year old. So it really is not correct to say that healthcare reform legislation sparked the rise of the tea party, there was some other pot-stirring going on there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/162 "2013-01-08T23:27:17Z")
> [@For You](#): > > No, the Tea thing started ramping up in early '09, long before we had any concrete details on the AHCA. They were screaming at townhalls that summer, while congress was still wrestling with the bill’s content. By the time the president signed the final draft, the Tea to-do was over a year old. So it really is not correct to say that healthcare reform legislation sparked the rise of the tea party, there was some other pot-stirring going on there. Ah, yes, there was. Well, not so much pot-stirring as [astroturfing.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tea_Party#Astroturf_organisation) But health-care reform certainly gave the bastards a ball to carry. (Lurves me sum mixed metaphors! :D) ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/163 "2013-01-10T18:09:01Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > Individuality and self-dependence/ self-reliance are core American values, and Capitalism is a partner to them. (oppurtunity, ect…) > Collectivism is becoming more mainstream in American ‘thinking’ and culture, and i see more liberal-minded people label themselves as ‘socialist’ all the time. > when questioned about that, they maintain that it’s not the same socialism of the National Socialists (nazis), or of Soviet or Chinese Communism. > obv, distancing yourself from the political philosophy of Hitler, Mao, and Stalin is a no-brainer, since they were the most evil criminals of the last century… > so, is there really a warm and fuzzy version of Collectivism available that will mean unicorns and rainbows for the world, and is the human dignity of the Individual worth sacrificing in order to achieve this? > …or is the sanctity, and dignity of the Individual worth sticking up for?? > are the other American values that go along with it to be kept around? more young americans favor socialism: www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/young-people-socialsim\_n\_1175218.html ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/164 "2013-01-10T18:30:29Z")
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party\_line\_(politics) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General\_line\_of\_the\_party [[DELETED LINK TO 1984]] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/165 "2013-01-10T18:37:55Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > more young americans favor socialism: > > www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/young-people-socialsim\_n\_1175218.html Yes, I’ve seen that poll before. It gives one hope . . . except that the poll does not define “socialism” or “capitalism,” so they’re really just polling for the popularity of the **words.** ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/166 "2013-01-10T18:38:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, I’ve seen that poll before. It gives one hope . . . except that the poll does not define “socialism” or “capitalism,” so they’re really just polling for the popularity of the **words.** Exactly. It’s a meaningless poll - partly because conservatives have been defining every liberal position as socialist for decades without regard to what socialism means. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/167 "2013-01-10T18:43:32Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party\_line\_(politics) > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General\_line\_of\_the\_party :rolleyes: Yes, yes, we know what the phrase “party line” **means.** That doesn’t mean there is any clear party line, in either major American party today. > [@wildorchid](#): > > www.ministryoflies.com/1984.pdf :dubious: And what was that in aid of? Sure, I’ve read _Nineteen Eighty-Four,_ I’m sure most GD-Dopers have read _Nineteen Eighty-Four._ For my part I have an extensive collection of the fiction, journalism and essays of George Orwell (who remained a self-ID’d socialist until the day he died, by the way). I post extensive quotations from Orwell’s essays quite frequently in this forum ([this](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html) is a good online source). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/168 "2013-01-10T18:45:15Z")
More concrete terms connected to capitalism are [doing quite well.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx) > [@](#): > > Americans are almost uniformly positive in their reactions to three terms: small business, free enterprise, and entrepreneurs. They are divided on big business and the federal government, with roughly as many Americans saying their view is positive as say it is negative. Americans are more positive than negative on capitalism (61% versus 33%) and more negative than positive on socialism (36% to 58%). Also, no one disputes that the concept of a party line exists. I dispute your claim that: > [@wildorchid](#): > > its becoming increasingly hard for the individual to not go along with the ‘party line’ in the face of collective pressure in America, when our tradition is open debate in an atmosphere where you can damn well take any position you choose without being goaded about it. Open dissent is in its golden age, not being suppressed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/169 "2013-01-10T18:49:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Open dissent is in its golden age, not being suppressed. In fact, the Internet is unprecedented fertilizer for it. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/170 "2013-01-10T18:52:36Z")
[Actually, denying the reality of Collectivism is already a powerful collectivist movement in America. It has been for some time.](http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/ready-lets-pretend-collectivism-doesnt-exist/) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/171 "2013-01-10T18:59:25Z")
Have you stopped beating your wife? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/172 "2013-01-10T19:10:27Z")
We’re going with blogs now? Not only that, the blogger is a paranoid moron: > [@Loon](#): > > Anyway, here’s the thing about Collectivism. It’s basically a movement to wipe out the very idea of the individual. The human of the future will only be visible as a member of a group. Otherwise, no one will see him, except to report him to Homeland Security. > > Eventually, all singular nouns and pronouns will be scrubbed from the English language. On Thanksgiving, people will say, “Pass the turkeys.” > > You’ll be standing alone on a street corner and a guy you know will come up to you and say, “How are you folks today?” He’s lazy, too. Here he is on guns: > [@Not Paying Attention](#): > > If Obama really wants to solve the problem of gun violence, why doesn’t he say anything about gangs? > Why doesn’t he say anything about New Orleans, Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, and St. Louis? > […] > And then I want to hear him say this, too: > […] > “There is no doubt the Second Amendment was drafted, in part, to allow citizens to protect themselves against the possible future tyranny of the central government. That potential tyranny was exactly why the whole Constitution was written as it was. To check the power of federal authority.” Except… > [@Obama](#): > > We’re a nation that believes in the Second Amendment, and I believe in the Second Amendment. We’ve got a long tradition of hunting and sportsmen and people who want to make sure they can protect themselves. > […] > in my home town of Chicago, there’s an awful lot of violence and they’re not using AK-47s. They’re using cheap hand guns. Not an exact quote, I admit, but he’s acknowledging the stuff this guy is talking about. The bit that’s merely 100% wrong and not completely nuts, that is. Do you think this is bolstering your cause, **wildorchid**? ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/173 "2013-01-10T19:14:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s as may be, but since you introduced those elements to the discussion, you should be prepared to, well, discuss them. > > Let’s deal with this central point, then. Here are Williams’ American value, and my remarks: > > 1. Achievement and Success are the major goals of individuals > > This is absolutely still in effect. > > 1. Activity and Work are favored above leisure and laziness. > > As is this. > > 1. Moral Orientation, that is, absolute judgments of good/bad right/wrong/ > > As is this. > > 1. Humanitarian Motives as demonstrated in philanthropy and crisis aid. > > Absolutely. > > 1. Efficiency and Practicality expresses a preference for the quickest and shortest way to achieve a goal at the least cost. > > Yes, sometime to a fault. > > 1. Process and Progress: represent a belief that technology can solve all problems, and that the future will be an improvement over the past. > > Strong as it’s ever been. > > 1. Material Comfort as the American Dream. > > Yes. > > 1. Equality as an abstract ideal. > > Stronger than ever before. > > 1. Freedom as a individual right against the state. > > Stronger than ever before. > > 1. External Conformity refers to the ideal of going along, joining, and not rocking the boat. > > Weaker, but this isn’t necessarily a change for the worse. > > 1. Science and Rationality as the means of mastering the environment and secure a better life in terms of material comforts. > > Stronger than ever before. > > 1. Nationalism the belief that American values and institutions represent the very best on Earth. > > Yes. > > 1. Democracy based on equality and freedom of individuals. > > Exceptionally so. > > 1. Individualism means that emphasis is placed on personal rights and responsibilities. > > Yes. > > 1. Racism and Group-superiority Themes that periodically lead to prejudice and discrimination against those who are racially, religiously, and culturally different from the white, Northern European stock that first settled the continent. > > Weakening; a good thing. > > So, you view those 15 values as being eroded? How so? > > I would argue the opposite, it’s never been easier to voice contrary opinions, and the consequences for doing so have never been less substantial. Social shaming is about it, [murder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgar_Evars) seems to be [out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.) of [favor.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers_murders) > > How, exactly, has a collectivist attitude been displayed here? > > The worst you’ll get is the idea that brutal totalitarianism isn’t inherent to socialism, which, with the stability of democratic socialism in Europe, seems to be true (though it likely is inherent to communism). I’d argue that socialism is dangerous to liberty and prosperity in many applications; luckily, my home, the United States, is hardly rushing to embrace socialism. I never said that American values no longer exist. what i’m saying is that they are under attack, and being replaced by collectivist attitudes and values via the public schooling system all the way up through the university level. I see individual people displaying the opposite of American values all the time: ] dependancy, on government or otherwise ] governement is to be worshipped ] moral relativism ; right and wrong is negotiable. ] austerity/ poverty is cool; ‘we must sacrifice’ for the greatest good… ] people tripping over themselves to give away their rights for security out of fear [acceptance of the patriot act/ homeland security/ TSA, which resembles the german enabling act of 1933] ] science is garbage, but new age mysticism is the way… this is what i’m seeing, anyways. the tacit denials of these trends only indicate that the denier is an ostrich… In reality, there are only individuals, and all a ‘collective’ is is a fiction; a mental construct to describe a bunch of individuals, of which any group must necessarily consist of. The individuals are real… It’s not like one day all americans have X values, and they wake up the next day and they all have B values. thats not what i’m saying… I’m not saying that traditional American values have 100% disappeared. (which you seem to be arguing against, although i never claimed this, i’m talking about the _direction that things are obviously moving in if one opens ones eyes._ what i \*[am/I] saying is that they are eroding, and the collectivist mind-set (very un-american value-wise, btw) is on the increase… it’s a process of attrition, as individuals one by one are influenced, not to adopt their parents, and grandparents values, but those of collectivism being promoted by public schooling/ the media. Of course, this extent of this process varies depending on where in the country you are, who you come into contact with. (peoples values today in Oklahoma, and California will be quite different, which only supports what i’m saying here; California is at the forefront of this process, ie. is more ‘progressive’… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/174 "2013-01-10T19:17:26Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > austerity/ poverty is cool; ‘we must sacrifice’ for the greatest good… Austerity is the opposite of a collectivist policy. It’s the idea that the government needs to drastically cut its spending on social programs. > [@](#): > > science is garbage, but new age mysticism is the way… Meh. There have always been people who reject science and there always will be, but proportionally there are fewer of them than there were in the past. This isn’t related to the issue you say you’re interested in. > [@](#): > > this is what i’m seeing, anyways. I don’t think you’re seeing anything remotely close to reality. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/175 "2013-01-10T19:28:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Austerity is the opposite of a collectivist policy. It’s the idea that the government needs to drastically cut its spending on social programs. > > Meh. There have always been people who reject science and there always will be, but proportionally there are fewer of them than there were in the past. This isn’t related to the issue you say you’re interested in. > > I don’t think you’re seeing anything remotely close to reality. like i said, it depends on where you are, and the individuals you run into, but i see the collectivist mind-set and philosophy displayed constantly… not only that, but i see american values being treated as something you should be ashamed of having… ( i’ve been called selfish for valuing my family, sexist for saying that kids are better off w/ 2 parents, and racist for being proud of my american heritage…are you suggesting that i imagined that??) on what basis are you implying that i am delusional?? i can cite tons on material on this trend… I just cited a poll that shows the majority of young people favoring socialism; read that again… not old people, _young people._ denying it is just beyond ridiculous… ] austerity means more taxation… what could be more collectivist than that? straight out of Marx. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/176 "2013-01-10T19:30:15Z")
Okay, **wildorchid** , I would like to remark that citing a Pew poll about people’s opinion of the word socialism is a much better approach than citing Agenda 21 or the Fabians, so thanks for stepping up your game, so to speak. The blog piece did make one point I agreed with, sort of: > [@](#): > > If you’re going after a black person who’s defending individuality and freedom, you’ve got the old standby, Uncle Tom. You can also say he’s betraying his own people, his own race. Not only does it cut deep, it also suggests that black people aren’t capable of being free individuals. This is good because, again, it bolsters the idea of an intransigent, oppressed, and completely helpless underclass. It’s not so much “defending individuality and freedom” as it is “pushing for cultural change in the underclass”, but the idea that treating said underclass as helpless victims with no agency in their lives is a destructive one, and a legacy of the 1960s. That’s a tangent, though. His broader points are furiously illogical and aren’t falsifiable; the claims are are presented as revealed truth, with no evidence or coherence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/177 "2013-01-10T19:35:33Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > on what basis are you implying that i am delusional?? I’m not implying you’re delusional. I’m saying you are completely wrong. That blogger appears to be delusional, but that’s another story. > [@](#): > > I just cited a poll that shows the majority of young people favoring socialism; reaf that again… not old people, _young people._ Already responded to it. We see surveys like this all the time, and they’re just impressions of a word, not any specific policies. > [@wildorchid](#): > > austerity means more taxation… what could be more collectivist than that? straight out of Marx. [No, it doesn’t.](http://www.europeaninstitute.org/April-2012/eu-austerity-and-reform-a-country-by-country-table-updated-may-3.html) First and forecast, austerity means drastic cuts in government spending and services, which is un-Marxist to say the least. Saying an increase in taxes is Marxist is ridiculous. You keep saying Marx was stupid, but it doesn’t sound like you have a firm understanding of what he said or thought. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/178 "2013-01-10T19:55:34Z")
“Anyway, here’s the thing about Collectivism. It’s basically a movement to wipe out the very idea of the individual. The human of the future will only be visible as a member of a group. Otherwise, no one will see him, except to report him to Homeland Security.” I agree with this^^^ its an anti-individual movement by definition… so, please go ahead and mention various aircraft, use ‘guilt by association’ fallacies, single out anyone who happens to a different opinion other than the one sanctioned by the party, which is: “what socialism?; what collectivism? where? theres no such thing… pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, move along, theres nothing to see here” you hear that all the time: ‘who are you with?’ … ‘what group do you belong to?’ people identify themselves more and more by the role they play, who they are affiliated with, not by who they are as an individual… its about how they fit into the group. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/179 "2013-01-10T20:00:09Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > I agree with this^^^ > > its an anti-individual movement by definition… You don’t think this guy sounds extremely paranoid, not to say crazy? > [@Bananas](#): > > [Environmentalist] kids are formidable. They’re in lock step like any good rank and file. With just a little push, they’d all gather in Times Square at high noon and sing the Internationale. > > We have to get them to mouth a whole different set of platitudes, to give themselves and us the aforementioned cover. > > Then, when everything’s ready, and our glorious leaders sense the moment has arrived, we can all step out into full view and declare we are one with Marx and Lenin. > > I mean, we are, right? > > Isn’t this what we want? There isn’t a fact or citation anywhere in this rambling entry, not that that’s a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051/180 "2013-01-10T20:03:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not implying you’re delusional. I’m saying you are completely wrong. That blogger appears to be delusional, but that’s another story. > > Already responded to it. We see surveys like this all the time, and they’re just impressions of a word, not any specific policies. > > [No, it doesn’t.](http://www.europeaninstitute.org/April-2012/eu-austerity-and-reform-a-country-by-country-table-updated-may-3.html) First and forecast, austerity means drastic cuts in government spending and services, which is un-Marxist to say the least. Saying an increase in taxes is Marxist is ridiculous. You keep saying Marx was stupid, but it doesn’t sound like you have a firm understanding of what he said or thought. look at #2 plank: “progressive heavy income tax” ie. re-distribution. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Communist\_Manifesto en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity \<\<\< ‘increase in taxes’; first sentence. of course Marx is stupid… with followers like Lenin, Stalin (i know he tweaked Marxism , but its still basically Marxism), and Mao, and the legacies they spawned, and the massive failures and cruelty that went along with them. are you defending Marxism?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-individual-or-the-collective/645051.md?page=10)