# The inevitable Jedi vs Avengers thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 1, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587 "2012-11-01T16:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/81 "2012-11-03T06:23:27Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Thor kills people just fine. Really? When I was a kid superheroes were really careful not to kill sentient beings. I still read several Marvel titles. I’ve never been a fan of Thor, but in his many appearances in other titles I’ve not noticed that he’s gone all Punisher or Wolverinish. ---
**Author:** ![GovernmentMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@GovernmentMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GovernmentMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/82 "2012-11-03T07:09:41Z")
> [@HenryGale](#): > > Both Sith and Jedi use telekinesis constantly in battle before closing to melee range, in the movies. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sromTpE4OE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sromTpE4OE) > > I’d say it’s indisputable that Yoda could do it, if you look at his battle with Palpatine, but I don’t see why at least Obi-Wan or Windu couldn’t do it too. > > I still say Hulk and Thor are the only threats to the Jedi. They’ll have quite a battle on their hands once the Jedi mop up the rest of the Avengers and gang up. I don’t think an army of Jedi could take on Thor or Hulk Iron Man would also mop the floor with loads of them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/83 "2012-11-03T14:12:18Z")
> [@HenryGale](#): > > Just wanted to point out that this is actually how Captain America, was “killed” too, in this case by a brainwashed girlfriend. If he’s the brains of the Avengers outfit, it could certainly happen to the rest, too. In fairness, IIRC Cap’s hands were cuffed behind his back and he’d just thrown his minus-a-shield body into the path of a bullet headed for someone else. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/84 "2012-11-03T14:53:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, Jedi have the superhuman speed to deflect bolts of energy coming at them at light speed, but can’t move to the side and take a swing at a giant green guy trying to smash them with a fist the size of a small car? 😛 Or, hell, just hold up the light saber like Sam in Return of the King and let the spider fall on it…and he’s got furry feet!! This was discussed endlessly on other forums, but blaster bolts are about as fast a bullets, or in that order of magnitude. Not light-speed. That _is_ still pretty fast by human reaction-time standards. Obviously, by Jedi standards, it’s manageable with training and experience. I think Iron Man would do better by not targeting the Jedi directly, but targeting near them and letting secondary effects ('splodey stuff, shrapnel, etc) injure/distract them. Still, Iron Man does have multiple weapons with which to attack; as noted upthread, he can give them Right Hand Beam to immobilize their lightsaber in “Block Beam” mode, and then hit them in the legs or head with Left Hand Beam. And he’s got flight power to spare, so even if a powerful Jedi like Yoda TKs him into a wall, Iron Man shakes it off and quickly gets back into the fight Hawkeye may have similar success with secondary-effects using his 'splodey-tipped arrows, and he can hang far enough back from the melee (ranged weapon attack) that the Jedi are too preoocupied by a rampaging Thor and Hulk to bother with mind-affecting somoene 50-100 meters away. Black Widow can also use a similar tactic. With fully-automatic firearms. **Note:** \*being a “gun guy” and former tanker/cavalryman, I was always a bit bugged by how stupidly conventional forces fought in the Star Wars movies. They’ve got powerful ranged weapons on fast mobile platforms, there’s no need to close to melee range. Garr! :gnash teeth: \* :smack: Unless he hangs back, Cappie’s shield might or might not be lightsaber fodder; I think it would be. I think Cappie would have a brief “Oh, Shit!” moment as his supposedly impenetrable shield (and supporting arm) goes flying in different directions before he gets the lightsaber Ginsu treatment. So long, Cappie, we’ll miss ya. Hulk, and Thor. Oh my. Hulk smash puny Jedi, indeed. Don’t cut him with a lightsaber; it only makes him angy. Er. Thor may not be an According-to-Hoyle God, but his civilization is so advanced as to be magic-tech. So I doubt that Jedi TK will be able to grab/neutralize Mjollnir. I’m not even sure a lightsaber will deflect it or damage it. _And_ he has superhuman (near God-like) strength, stamina, toughness, and speed. Plus, the Avengers just seem to fight _smarter_ than Jedi, who seem to mostly just charge in, swinging their lightsabers for all they’re worth. IMO, Avengers FTW. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/85 "2012-11-03T15:00:15Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > This was discussed endlessly on other forums, but blaster bolts are about as fast a bullets, or in that order of magnitude. Not light-speed. Not even that - I mean, we can see _blaster_ bolts travelling, they’re that slow. Same order of magnitude as arrows, more like. So I guess Hawkeye is the only useless one. Yeah, good luck deflecting _two_ clips from Widow’s pistols, Jedi guy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/86 "2012-11-03T15:07:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless he hangs back, Cappie’s shield might or might not be lightsaber fodder; I think it would be. I think Cappie would have a brief “Oh, Shit!” moment as his supposedly impenetrable shield (and supporting arm) goes flying in different directions before he gets the lightsaber Ginsu treatment. So long, Cappie, we’ll miss ya. OK, leaving aside the comics, which make it clear that the shield is indestructible. Did you at least see the Captain America movie? Where he repeatedly takes energy blasts that can destroy tanks with one shot to the shield, and where it doesn’t get so much as a scratch? And you really still think a lightsabre can cleave right through it? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/87 "2012-11-03T15:08:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not even that - I mean, we can see _blaster_ bolts travelling, they’re that slow. Same order of magnitude as arrows, more like. > > So I guess Hawkeye is the only useless one. Yeah, good luck deflecting _two_ clips from Widow’s pistols, Jedi guy. I put them at bullet-speed. Special effects inconsistencies aside, they’re fairly close (visual-effects wise) to tracer-rounds out of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/88 "2012-11-03T15:09:28Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > A point everyone is missing is that the Avengers aren’t real big on killing their enemies. Even ignoring that we’re talking about the movie-verse where they’re shown killing human adversaries during the raid on the Helicarrier - in Cap and Tony’s case, chucking them OFF the Helicarrier at several points, so it wasn’t even clean deaths… Cap is a hardened soldier. Widow is a former assassin. Hulk is a rampaging monster of pure rage. Thor is a warrior god. None of those four will quail at killing people who are currently trying to kill them. Iron Man and Hawkeye are a little iffier if we assume the comic book versions, but, both have killed before, and almost certainly will again. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/89 "2012-11-03T15:10:36Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > This was discussed endlessly on other forums, but blaster bolts are about as fast a bullets, or in that order of magnitude. Not light-speed. Defintely slower. Way more powerful, but slower. > [@](#): > > I think Iron Man would do better by not targeting the Jedi directly, but targeting near them and letting secondary effects ('splodey stuff, shrapnel, etc) injure/distract them. Still, Iron Man does have multiple weapons with which to attack; as noted upthread, he can give them Right Hand Beam to immobilize their lightsaber in “Block Beam” mode, and then hit them in the legs or head with Left Hand Beam. [ I’m actually not sure they’d be able to block. His repulsor beams _aren’t plasma_. They are nothing like plasma. That seems to be raw kinetic energy with no matter behind it. It can still kill, but it doesn’t cause any burns or damage materials like fire or “plasma” weaponry. It doesn’t explode into energy. Lightsabers may be able to soak up energy, but they can’t, as far as we see, stop physical force. > [@](#): > > Unless he hangs back, Cappie’s shield might or might not be lightsaber fodder; I think it would be. I think Cappie would have a brief “Oh, Shit!” moment as his supposedly impenetrable shield (and supporting arm) goes flying in different directions before he gets the lightsaber Ginsu treatment. So long, Cappie, we’ll miss ya. No. Cap’s shield is always shown as being able to completely ignore way, WAY more powerful effects than a lightsaber. He’s been able to block Beam O’ Death from things which would make the Jedi wet themselves, and it’s generally taken outright deities to actually break the damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/90 "2012-11-03T15:12:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, leaving aside the comics, which make it clear that the shield is indestructible. Did you at least see the Captain America movie? Where he repeatedly takes energy blasts that can destroy tanks with one shot to the shield, and where it doesn’t get so much as a scratch? And you really still think a lightsabre can cleave right through it? Actually, no, I didn’t see the Cap’n America movie; I’ve heard that it’s pretty good, and it is on my “to-do” list, just haven’t gotten around to it yet. And I’ve never followed comics. I assumed it was a super-tough alloy of some sort, with certain special qualities (it took a full-body smash from Mjollnir!), but Qui-Gon Jin melted through an armored blast door with a lightsaber, so I gave that nod to the Jedi. I may have to reassess that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/91 "2012-11-03T15:18:58Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I assumed it was a super-tough alloy of some sort, with certain special qualities (it took a full-body smash from Mjollnir!), but Qui-Gon Jin **melted through an armored blast door** with a lightsaber, so I gave that nod to the Jedi. That’s the key part: melted. Not cleaved or sliced. Swing a lightsaber at the shield directly and it’s just going to bounce. While that is going on Cap puts a few rounds from his .45 into said Jedi’s guts. The Jedi have squat for tactics. Avengers don’t even break a sweat. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/92 "2012-11-03T15:31:45Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s the key part: melted. Not cleaved or sliced. Swing a lightsaber at the shield directly and it’s just going to bounce. While that is going on Cap puts a few rounds from his .45 into said Jedi’s guts. > > The Jedi have squat for tactics. Avengers don’t even break a sweat. Granted, but I was thinking that if a lightsaber is powerful enough and hot enough to interpentrate and then melt a hardened blast door, it would be hot enough to slice through a (comparatively speaking) thin metal; it’s not like we don’t have direct on-screen evidence of lightsabers doing exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/93 "2012-11-03T16:01:38Z")
But it isn’t just “thin metal.” It’s vibranium. Or rather, a vibranium alloy. I think it would take extended contact and force for a lightsaber to even scratch the paint on the shield. In-universe, the only things to ever damage or destroy the shield have been, literally, god powers. Even Molecule Man said the shield was “weird.” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/94 "2012-11-03T19:35:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But it isn’t just “thin metal.” It’s vibranium. Or rather, a vibranium alloy. I think it would take extended contact and force for a lightsaber to even scratch the paint on the shield. In-universe, the only things to ever damage or destroy the shield have been, literally, god powers. Even Molecule Man said the shield was “weird.” Right. And see my answer to **Chronos**. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/95 "2012-11-03T19:53:30Z")
Cap’s shield may as well be magical and is as indestructible as Mjolnir. The only known material that is _possibly_ stronger than the adamantium-vibranium alloy composing his shield is adamantium itself – the stuff coating Wolverine’s bones – and adamantium is literally unbreakable. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/96 "2012-11-03T21:30:20Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Right. And see my answer to **Chronos**. Specifically, note that Hydra’s agents, armed with weaponry which makes lightsabers look like children’s toys (instantly disintegrating an entire human body) couldn’t even singe his shield, according to the movie. The comic book shield stands up to similar punishment. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/97 "2012-11-04T05:13:29Z")
Yeah, but the Jedi have FTL vessels, and could tractor beam the Hulk into the sun in less time than it takes for the Avengers to gather their flock of loose cannons. I’m gonna say it depends on who has the advantage of surprise/preparation, you let either side get all set up to fight their battle their way and they win. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/98 "2012-11-04T10:46:44Z")
The Avengers win because they’re the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/99 "2012-11-04T18:16:56Z")
> [@Ephemera](#): > > Cap’s shield may as well be magical and is as indestructible as Mjolnir. The only known material that is _possibly_ stronger than the adamantium-vibranium alloy composing his shield is adamantium itself – the stuff coating Wolverine’s bones – and adamantium is literally unbreakable. Full stop. Cap’s shield is a vibranium-_iron_ alloy, created in a process that has never been successfully duplicated. Attempts to recreate the experiment, however, led to the invention of adamantium, which, while extraordinarily durable, is still weaker than both vibranium and Cap’s vibranium alloy shield. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587/100 "2012-11-04T19:44:39Z")
Adamantium is stronger than just plain vibranium. And it’s difficult to say whether adamantium or the shield is stronger, since they’re both, for all practical purposes, infinitely strong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-jedi-vs-avengers-thread/639587.md?page=6)