# The inevitable sex scene in Sci-Fi and Fantasy books. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481 "2009-02-19T00:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/41 "2009-02-19T18:02:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I haven’t read anything by anyone on your list except one book by Heinlein that I didn’t like, but I notice that they’re all men and, generally speaking, I find male writers really suck at sex scenes. :eek: That’s close to a canonical list of good sf writers. BTW, the Rama books after the first were written by Gentry Lee, who shouldn’t be allowed near a word processor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/42 "2009-02-19T18:04:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’ve read an awful lot of SF and fantasy, and in most of the ones I’ve read, the sex scenes, where present, tend to be mercifully brief. Easy to skip over. > > Now the guys who write SF and fantasy with strong sexual themes because they’re interested in that are a mixed bag. Heinlein sucked at it, big time. Piers Anthony’s sexy stuff is indeed skeevy. Philip Jose Farmer did some very nice work. Randy Andy Offut write some good, raunchy fantasy. The guy who did the Spaceways series (name escapes me for the moment) did some nice stuff. And there are one of two others I won’t mention. > > Basically, I think the writers who like sexual themes do a good job and the writers who don’t should stay the hell away from sex scenes. Which most of them do, for the most part. Pier Anthony’s porn book sucks, and not in a good way. I have **Ardor on Ardos** by Offut, which is very good. What else do you recommend of his? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/43 "2009-02-19T18:09:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > :eek: That’s close to a canonical list of good sf writers. I recognize all of the names, but I don’t read science fiction. I opened the thread only because “fantasy” was in the title. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/44 "2009-02-19T18:13:41Z")
To make up for Lord of the Rings. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/45 "2009-02-19T18:27:06Z")
**The inevitable sex scene in Sci-Fi and Fantasy books. Why?** Some look at sex scenes and ask, “Why?” I imagine sex scenes still unwritten and ask, “Why not?” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/46 "2009-02-19T18:33:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Harry Turtledove. _How Few Remain._ > > Mark Twain has a sex scene. > > **Mark Twain has a sex scene.** > > That is all. Turtledove is just gratuitous when it comes to sex scenes. I absolutely adore the World War series, but the amount of porn in it is just embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/47 "2009-02-19T18:44:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I haven’t read anything by anyone on your list except one book by Heinlein that I didn’t like, but I notice that they’re all men and, generally speaking, I find male writers really suck at sex scenes. A Heinlein book that you **didn’t like**? You are not of the body! HERETIC! Burn the witch! 😛 But seriously, which one? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/48 "2009-02-19T19:09:27Z")
> [@MichaelJohnBertrand](#): > > A Heinlein book that you **didn’t like**? > > You are not of the body! HERETIC! Burn the witch! 😛 > > But seriously, which one? _Glory Road_. Looks like I gave it two stars on Goodreads: > [@me on Goodreads](#): > > Of course I had heard of Heinlein, but this was my first exposure to one of his books. It occasionally reads like bad adolescent fantasy, but I think there’s something worth reading here. It’s a somewhat silly book, and I kept picturing Heidi Klum as Star, which was distracting. It’s also a very short read, so even if you consider it a waste of time, it doesn’t waste that much. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/49 "2009-02-19T19:40:15Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > The sex in Jean M. Auel’s stuff (that I read) seemed pointless. They are the New Breed! They have sex compatibility! I think rather that the sex scenes in Auel’s books are the _only_ point to that series. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/50 "2009-02-19T19:50:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’d say at least 90% of the books that have made The new York Times Bestsellers List for the past, oh, 20 years have been genre fiction. > > Here’s the current list. > That’s actually less genre than most weeks, though still over 50%. > > Genre is all powerful. Mainstream is an in-cult joke, saleswise. > > All I’m saying is that you aren’t aware of the realities of modern-day publishing. I think you’re wrong on the specifics and wrong in the generalities. You’re wrong on what’s being written and you’re wrong on what people read and you’re wrong on who reads what and everything else I can think of. And of course nobody is backing you up, because there’s nothing there to back up. > > But I like the fact that you read and that you have standards for what you read and those standards include good writing and good scenes. You’re not wrong about that. That’s totally admirable. I will readily plead ignorance to the world of publishing. I think, perhaps, that there may be a misunderstanding owing my mistaken understanding of what ‘genre fiction’ means. According to an English major I knew, it meant Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror, and Speculative Fiction. Judging by the books you’ve mentioned, he was wrong and the term covers considerably more territory, including what I thought of as ‘mainstream’ fiction. Which raises the question-What is ‘mainstream fiction’? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/51 "2009-02-19T19:53:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > :eek: That’s close to a canonical list of good sf writers. Canonical _male_ writers. No Le Guin, no Zimmer Bradley, no Cherryh, no Brackett, no Moore, no Tiptree/Sheldon, no Tepper. I’d hold any of those against most on your list (especially that hack Heinlein) ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/52 "2009-02-19T20:10:19Z")
In deference to the more informed (and no doubt recent) opinions of others, I rescind, retract, and repudiate my earlier mention of Reynolds and Crichton. I have not read anything of theirs in quite a long time and am likely remembering incorrectly. Gentry Lee wrote the other Rama books? That’s great news. Mr. Clarke can go back on my list of OK writers. Would it be fair to say the consensus so far is that badly written sex is no more common in Spec Fiction than in fiction as a whole, and that the really bad stuff can be quite a bit worse than what is found in the examples I gave? Mark fucking Twain? He’d probably thought it was funny. And Heinlein sucks. Except the good parts of Starship Troopers. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/53 "2009-02-19T20:50:17Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Which raises the question-What is ‘mainstream fiction’? That’s a six-page thread all to itself. The short answer is that mainstream is that which isn’t genre. I know. But that’s the real answer. So what’s genre? There are several major genres and dozens of sub-genres. Science fiction, fantasy, and horror are either genres by themselves or sub-genres of some larger category. SF has military, hard, soft, speculative, alternate history, and more. Fantasy is split into urban, historical, mythological, pastoral, among others. Mystery contains thrillers, detective fiction, police procedurals, cozies, whodunits, private eyes, and a dozen more. Technothrillers and spy novels are sometimes mystery and sometimes separate. Serial killer novels are a new genre or sub-genre. Romance has fifteen or more sub-genres, the largest being contemporary (which is divided into various shades of explicitness), historical (ditto), paranormal, romantic suspense, and inspirational. Inspirational crosses over into Christian fiction, which has overlaps with most of the other genres as well. Westerns are an old genre that is now split into contemporary and historical. Tie-in novels overlap other genres. They used to be heavily f&sf-related but today you can find gaming, mystery, anime and other tie-ins. Erotica and pornography are genres and that takes us back to chick lit, which can be mainstream or romance but is developing into its own category. Is humor a genre? It can be from people like Christopher Moore. Bestseller fiction is a genre, with people like Dan Brown and James Patterson and Michael Crichton examples, although they can be genre bestsellers like Stephen King and Nora Roberts and J. R. Rowling. Young adult and children’s books are technically not genre, but given the recent popularity of fantasy series genre has mostly taken them over. There are lots of others specialized genres, like war books and action hero books and whatnot. What’s left? Mainstream. Which so often overlaps into genre in tone and style that a special name, [slipsteam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipstream_(genre)), is given to mainstream authors who write books accepted by the critics but obviously in the f&sf genre. That Wiki page gives magic realism, the new weird, and speculative fiction as sub-genres of slipstream, but nobody agrees what those boundaries really mean. However, the reality is that while mainstream authors get most of the critical attention, books that are genre from any publishing or critical perspective constitute the vast bulk of fiction sales. I don’t know what the exact percentage is and there’s a huge definitional problem to boot. My guess is 90% of fiction sales are genre in some form of what I gave above. If you take out the bestseller genre, as many people would, at least 50% of all fiction sales are genre. That leaves maybe 10% for mainstream. It’s all genre out there. Generalizations are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/54 "2009-02-19T21:25:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Canonical _male_ writers. No Le Guin, no Zimmer Bradley, no Cherryh, no Brackett, no Moore, no Tiptree/Sheldon, no Tepper. I’d hold any of those against most on your list (especially that hack Heinlein) No Asimov either. I agree with your additions, but someone who has read none of the listed authors (except one book by Heinlein) can’t say much about sf in general. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/55 "2009-02-19T21:32:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I recognize all of the names, but I don’t read science fiction. I opened the thread only because “fantasy” was in the title. Ah, that explains why the book you read was Glory Road, not exactly mainstream Heinlein. He wrote some more fantasy, but that was Unknown style, back in the '40s. I wonder if there is any difference in the quality of fantasy sex scenes and sf sex scenes, besides the former often happening in forests and castles and such. (Or between vampires and werewolves, which seems to be the current trend.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/56 "2009-02-19T22:11:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No Asimov either. I agree with your additions, but someone who has read none of the listed authors (except one book by Heinlein) can’t say much about sf in general. I didn’t say _anything_ about sf in general. I commented on everyone on the list being male. I read _Glory Road_ because my husband liked it and thought I might. I wouldn’t have picked it up on my own. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/57 "2009-02-19T22:29:57Z")
- 95% of everything is crap - Sex sells - “Genre fiction” is typically a way of really saying “writing that involves characters, plots and more-or-less linear storytelling, regardless of setting” vs. “I am a fancy writer trying to impress other fancy writers” liter-ah-ture Ergo, writers who write genre fiction are trying to tell character-driven stories and include sex in their writing because it helps sell books - and 95% of their writing is crap. What was the question? ---
**Author:** ![Idlewild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8491ac/32.png) [@Idlewild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idlewild)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/58 "2009-02-19T23:01:50Z")
I don’t read widely in science fiction but I’ve read a decent amount of Neal Stephenson and William Gibson, and while the sex scenes they write are frequently uncomfortable to read, in my opinion they are there for damn good reasons. Stephenson in particular is masterful in his use of bad sex to further good character development. Holy heck, The Baroque Cycle contains some of my absolute favorite cringeworthy sex that exists not to titillate but inform. I only wish I could write joyless coupling used as a political weapon with the ease he does. I think in the whole trilogy there’s a total of one sex scene in which both parties are sincerely just in it for the orgasms. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/59 "2009-08-05T01:38:07Z")
And don’t forget Ben Bova. It’s like you’re reading like Jackie Collins “In Space!”. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481/60 "2009-08-05T02:16:05Z")
… You waited six months to mention Ben Bova??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-inevitable-sex-scene-in-sci-fi-and-fantasy-books-why/486481.md?page=4)