### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/1 "2006-12-16T18:11:53Z")
[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16227791/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16227791/)
> [@](#):
>
> …hundreds of the men have been transferred from Guantanamo Bay to other countries, many of them for “continued detention.”
>
> And then set free…
>
> …Once the detainees arrived in other countries, 205 of the 245 were either freed without being charged or were cleared of charges related to their detention at Guantanamo. Forty either stand charged with crimes or continue to be detained…The Afghan government has freed every one of the more than 83 Afghans sent home. Lawmaker Sibghatullah Mujaddedi, the head of Afghanistan’s reconciliation commission, said many were innocent and wound up at Guantanamo because of tribal or personal rivalries.
>
> At least 67 of 70 repatriated Pakistanis are free after spending a year in Adiala Jail. A senior Pakistani Interior Ministry official said investigators determined that most had been “sold” for bounties to U.S. forces by Afghan warlords who invented links between the men and al-Qaida. “We consider them innocent,” said the official, who declined to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue.
>
> All 29 detainees who were repatriated to Britain, Spain, Germany, Russia, Australia, Turkey, Denmark, Bahrain and the Maldives were freed, some within hours after being sent home for “continued detention.”
> …
I wonder if I should pit the liberal tedia for its utter failure to even _mention_ the profuse apologies and lavish compensations showered upon these men by our chastened and repentant government. Shirley, if we slammed up a bunch of innocent people for three years and treated them like evil, evil terrists, they were accorded a decent apology? And some compensation? Of course they were, to imagine otherwise is unthinkable! And yet the scurrilous AP doesn’t even have the decency to mention it, leaving the foul impression that these people were simply kicked loose without so much as a “Oooopsy! My bad!”.
And now on to Mr. Padilla…
[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/washington/14padilla.html?\_r=1&ref=washington&oref=slogin](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/washington/14padilla.html?_r=1&ref=washington&oref=slogin)
> [@](#):
>
> Saying that he was mentally damaged as a result of his three years and eight months in a naval brig in South Carolina, lawyers for Jose Padilla asked a federal judge in Miami yesterday to determine his competency to stand trial on terrorism conspiracy charges…
>
> Mr. Padilla,…was transferred from military custody into the civilian law enforcement system earlier this year. But, his lawyers say, he has been unable to assist in his own defense, and mental health experts have been unable to help him or to help them deal with him…
>
> Saying that there was “sufficient cause” to conduct a competency hearing, the government, in papers filed yesterday, urged the judge to do so.
>
> The government itself cited the affidavit of a psychiatrist for the defense, Dr. Angela Hegarty, who said that Mr. Padilla did not understand the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him and that he suffered “impairment in reasoning” as a result of post-traumatic stress disorder “complicated by the effects of prolonged isolation.”…
Yep, that’s right. Lost his marbles. What a weak sister, huh? Coming unglued after a mere three or so years of gentle and humane incarceration in a clean and hygenic cell, lavishly appointed with a toilet, and entirely free of the vexations of human interaction.
Another proud day to be an American!
---
### Author:  [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/2 "2006-12-16T19:20:06Z")
The whole gitmo thing has really pissed me off. Any mention of due process, Geneva Convention rights, or opposing torture is met with a chorus of “why do you want to coddle terrorists” and how these are the “worst of the worst”. But you never hear anyone talk about how we know if the incarcerated are guilty of anything.
You could have said the same thing about the Lacrosse players: “why are we letting these gang rapists go free” and “why should we give these people due process when they did not give the dancer due process before raping her”. The only problem is that after the hysteria died down we find that they are probably innocent after all.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/3 "2006-12-16T20:15:42Z")
Remember my words: someday your children will look at you\* in the eye and ask you why you generation did something like that.
Or maybe not. In which case my belief that humans are fundamentally fucked up will be confirmed.
\*General _you_
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### Author:  [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/4 "2006-12-16T20:24:31Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I wonder if I should
\
without so much as a “Oooopsy! My bad!”.
[/QUOTE]
Yanno… I was about to ask for a cite that we actually paid restitutions or something. And then pit _you_ for being an apologist.
Didja where that noise? I think that was the whoosh going over my head…
:smack:
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/5 "2006-12-16T20:28:58Z")
I haven’t followed the Padilla case very closely, but the Gitmo situation is just incomprehensible to me-- it so wrong and so shameful, I don’t even know where to begin. And the crazy part is that it’s also stupid! It is accomplishing **exactly the opposite** of what it’s supposed to be doing-- making us less safe from terror atacks rather than more safe. I suspect that for every “alleged terrorist” we hold there, we’ve created 10 or more \*\*real \*\*terrorists (or jihadists, if you prefer) in reaction to it. And the foot dragging that Bush et al have done with the court cases is just disgusting. I don’t mean just the slow processing of the detainees, but the constant appeals that have had to be made to the SCOTUS every step along the way.
Yet another thing that is going to be left to “future presidents” to deal with.
---
### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/6 "2006-12-16T21:15:54Z")
Oh, not to worry. Things are improving as we speak:
[**Military Taking a Tougher Line With Detainees**](http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/sf/nyt12_16_6_6.htm)
> [@](#):
>
> Security procedures have been tightened. Group activities have been scaled back. With the retrofitting of Camp 6 and the near-emptying of another showcase camp for compliant prisoners, military officials said about three-fourths of the detainees would eventually be held in maximum-security cells. That is a stark departure from earlier plans to hold a similar number in medium-security units.
>
> Officials said the shift reflected the military’s analysis — after a series of hunger strikes, a riot last May and three suicides by detainees in June — that earlier efforts to ease restrictions on the detainees had gone too far.
>
> The commander of the Guantánamo task force, Rear Adm. Harry B. Harris Jr., said the tougher approach also reflected the changing nature of the prison population, and his conviction that all of those now held here are dangerous men. “ **They’re all terrorists; they’re all enemy combatants,** ” Admiral Harris said in an interview.
>
> He added, “I don’t think there is such a thing as a medium-security terrorist.”
>
> Admiral Harris, who took command on March 31, referred in part to the recent departure from Guantánamo of the last of 38 men whom the military had classified since early 2005 as “no longer enemy combatants.”\* Still, about 100 others who had been cleared by the military for transfer or release remained here while the State Department tried to arrange their repatriation.\*
>
> [Shortly after Admiral Harris’s remarks, another 15 detainees were sent home to Saudi Arabia, where they were promptly returned to their families.]
bolding/italics mine.
America, is it a great country or what?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/7 "2006-12-16T22:40:57Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury]
America, is it a great country or what?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it is. You can pick just about any time in US history and find some pretty damn objectionable things going on. That’s \*\*not \*\*to excuse Bush’s debacles, nor to minimize them, but an entire country is not defined by just its worst actions or aspects. Bush will be gone in 2 years (yeah, that’s 2 years too long), and I have faith in our system that we’ll get back on a better track once that happens.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/8 "2006-12-16T23:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=JustAnotherGeek]
Yanno… I was about to ask for a cite that we actually paid restitutions or something. And then pit _you_ for being an apologist.
Didja where that noise? I think that was the whoosh going over my head…
:smack:
[/QUOTE]
Shit. I was just about to do the same. :smack:
At least the far-right conservatives in the '50’s only put “In God We Trust” on the money. These fuckers we gots the last few years are some serious loonies.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/9 "2006-12-16T23:51:28Z")
Shit. _Sooo_ close! Had my innocent martyr dress all picked out, and everything. (There’s a martyr frocker shop just down the street…)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/10 "2006-12-17T00:24:04Z")
It never crossed my mind that you were being anything but sarcastic.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/11 "2006-12-17T00:33:59Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Shit. _Sooo_ close! Had my innocent martyr dress all picked out, and everything. (There’s a martyr frocker shop just down the street…)
[/QUOTE]
Maybe next time, Oed.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/12 "2006-12-17T00:56:34Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
(There’s a martyr frocker shop just down the street…)
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, we got it.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/13 "2006-12-17T01:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Actually, it is. You can pick just about any time in US history and find some pretty damn objectionable things going on…
[/QUOTE]
It is a great country. However, I don’t swell with pride about having the Secretary of Defense facing prosecution for war crimes. A spot of bother, that.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/14 "2006-12-17T01:35:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
It never crossed my mind that you were being anything but sarcastic.
[/QUOTE]
Because there’s no chance these guys would do the decent thing. That’s it, right, **John**?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/15 "2006-12-17T02:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott]
It is a great country. However, I don’t swell with pride about having the Secretary of Defense facing prosecution for war crimes. A spot of bother, that.
[/QUOTE]
Except that he’s not facing prosecution for war crimes.
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Because there’s no chance these guys would do the decent thing. That’s it, right, John?
Yeah, that’s it.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/16 "2006-12-17T03:05:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Except that he’s not facing prosecution for war crimes.
[/QUOTE]
[Rumsfeld Sued for Alleged War Crimes](http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1413907,00.html)
More here:
[War Crimes Complaint Against Rumsfeld et.al.](http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/GermanCase2006/germancase.asp)
> [@](#):
>
> The November 14, 2006, criminal complaint is a request for the German Federal Prosecutor to open an investigation and, ultimately, a criminal prosecution that will look into the responsibility of high-ranking U.S. officials for authorizing war crimes in the context of the so-called “War on Terror.” The complaint is brought on behalf of 12 torture victims – 11 Iraqi citizens who were held at Abu Ghraib prison and one Guantánamo detainee – and is being filed by the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR), the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), the Republican Attorneys’ Association (RAV) and others, all represented by Berlin Attorney Wolfgang Kaleck.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/17 "2006-12-17T03:53:30Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
[Rumsfeld Sued for Alleged War Crimes](http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1413907,00.html)
More here:
[War Crimes Complaint Against Rumsfeld et.al.](http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/GermanCase2006/germancase.asp)
[/QUOTE]
As I said, he’s not facing prosecution for war crimes. Those cites do not prove otherwise. Didn’t you particpate in the threads where these were discussed?
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/18 "2006-12-17T04:22:36Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
As I said, he’s not facing prosecution for war crimes. Those cites do not prove otherwise. Didn’t you particpate in the threads where these were discussed?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t recall. Did you win that debate **John**?
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/19 "2006-12-17T06:20:37Z")
Every thing the United States Government has done because of the attack on 9/11 has made every aspect of world terrorism worse. Every thing that the cowards who call for more security, and the bigots who call for more killing, and every thing that allows the exact same people who sat and voted to allow their puppet dictator/president to continue to represent the United States to the world has proven that we are a nation of cowards, and bullies. I am waaaaay past being ashamed of my government. I am ashamed of my fellow citizens.
But, as long as I have cheap gas for my SUV, I am gonna keep supporting the President!
Tris
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-innocents-of-gitmo-and-padilla/384417/20 "2006-12-17T18:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
I don’t recall. Did you win that debate **John**?
[/QUOTE]
Go back and look at the thead and you decide. In the meantime, though, I’d love to place a little wager with you on whether Rumsfeld is facing prosecution for war crimes. How much would you like to plop down? $100? More?
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