# The Intefada has failed, its time to surrender **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519 "2004-05-04T20:36:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/81 "2004-05-10T16:18:25Z")
> [@Eric the Black](#): > > Olentzero, this is clearly just another one of Israel’s destroy and scatter tactics. It’s blatant ethnic cleansing and completely inexcusable. To me at least. Agreed. Neither side is stranger to inexcusable behavior in this fight, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/82 "2004-05-10T16:34:15Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Yes, it’s called “disgust at collective punishment”. 75 Palestinians were made homeless as punishment for the actions of a handful of other Palestinians. Yes, at least one of those homes (surely not all 12) was used as a sniper outpost. Had it been sniping at IDF personnel or other non-civilian targets, I would say “War is hell” but still voiced my disgust at the collective punishment meted out by Israel. Ah yes, collective punishment: wrong for Israel, but right for the Intefada. Collective punishment is wrong, we can define that as fact. The challenge now is to determine if what the Israelis did was collective punishment. We can leave this as I say no and you will say yes. A few years ago Israel came up with a new policy: the homes of suicide bombers (or martyrs) would be destroyed. This was called collective punishment, the Israelis were punishing the “innocent” family of suicide bombers. The family did not commit the act, so the family should not be punished. Here comes the big **however** : The family plays a HUGE role in the development of a suicide bomber, AND up until a little over a year ago Saddam was paying upwards of $20,000 to the family. What were they rewarded for if they were not involved? Now, for some reason you kept focusing on the sniper situation, so again I’ll point out that there area variety of reasons for destorying a Palestinian home. And when one is destroyed three parties share responsibility: 1.) The IDF for making the decision and tearing it down. 2.) The militants for CHOOSING to use that building. 3.) The civilians who allowed it to be used. If you allowed somone to set up a meth lab in your basement, the police will cease your house, no matter how justified you feel the meth lab is or how little involvement you had. Collective punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/83 "2004-05-10T16:42:09Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > Let me get this straight: You support the dismantling of the State of Israel? If so, what do you suggest that I, personally, do with my life? My wife? My children? All of us grew up here (or are growing up here). We have no other place to call home. Why do you feel that it’s OK to disposess us of our home and country, but it isn’t OK to do the same to Palestinian individuals? OK, as I said in a previous post in this thread, one’s ethnic origin or religion should not be a determinant as to who stays and who leaves. I am not calling for your family’s expulsion from anywhere. Or the dispossession of _all_ Israelis. But in those cases where Palestinians were clearly dispossessed, every effort should be expended to grant them unconditional right of return. There is no reason whatsoever that Israeli Jew and Palestinian Arab cannot live side by side over the whole of what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories. But it’s clear that those at the top of both Israeli and Palestinian society don’t want that. > [@](#): > > I don’t know the exact circumstances yet, and 5 will get you 10 that there has been at least **some** over-reaction here, but, basicly (as several other have noted), those buildings that are torn down are torn down for perceived tactical / strategical reasons - not as a wanton act of destruction. (Yes - _perceived_ as in “possibly mistaken”. War **is** hell.) OK, let’s take just one example and work with that. There is a village in the Acre sub-district called [al-Ghabisiyya](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/al-Ghabisiyya/index.html). According to this [map](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/index.html), al-Ghabisiyya was located deep in the heart of the sub-district, quite far away from the partition [border](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story580.html) as set by the UN in 1947. Yet the Israelis occupied it on 20 May 1948, and all that remains now of the old Palestinian village is the shell of the mosque. Now, will you be so kind as to provide information as to what perceived tactical or strategical reasons lay behind the total destruction of a village that wasn’t even close to the territorial border? > [@](#): > > Oh, and a demolished home and the resulting homelessness are (at least semi-)reversible losses. A pregnant woman and her four little girls dead is **not** in any way reversible! True. But if the damage is not reversed (and what evidence is there to believe Israel _will_ reverse it?), then what good is it to claim “We could undo that but the Palestinians can’t undo what they’ve done?” **emacknight** , please point to where I’ve stated that I support the use of collective punishment by the Palestinians and not by the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/84 "2004-05-10T16:44:52Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The family plays a HUGE role in the development of a suicide bomber, AND up until a little over a year ago Saddam was paying upwards of $20,000 to the family. What were they rewarded for if they were not involved? Could you expand a little more on the huge role an individual’s family plays in the development of a suicide bomber, and provide cites for the claims of Saddam Hussein providing big money for such things? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/85 "2004-05-10T17:00:26Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > **Tabby\_Cat** - how else is terrorism manifested in the intifadeh besides individual attacks? What state terrorism is there to support? How else is the intefada expressed? No, really. It’s called “uprising” for a reason, Arafat’s encouragement of the individual terrorists are equivalent to state terrorism, if Arafat can be said to be the leader of the “state”. > [@](#): > > The Palestinians _do_ have the right to self-determination but not the _ability_ to exercise it. Rights are not solid, tangible objects like oranges. Governments on’t have the power to grant rights or to take them away; they can only state that they either will or will not prevent people from exercising them by use of the laws they enact. Did you, like, skip a few pages back there? About where rights come from and all that? > [@](#): > > _The only way the Palestinians can successfully exercise the right of self-determination is to fight for the ability to exercise it._ They have the right; Israel, however, is using force to prevent them from exercising it, necessitating the fights that have come before and will come again as long as this situation continues. Yeah, it seems like you skipped a few pages. If you won’t accept that Israel got the right to administer the land from the UN mandate, then there is really nothing more to say. Hey, does that Red Indian on that reserve have the right to suddenly decide that he’d like to have a Red Indian Chief instead of Prez Bush? Damn, he’s just exercising his right to self determination, you know. His daddy lived on the land since the Mayflower came in. Aw hell, he just firebombed City Hall. Oh well, he’s justfied in that, because he’s just exercising his oppressed right to self determination. Hey, the Mormons in Utah just decided to elect High priest Jethro as their ruler (proxy to God, y’know), and that’s some right of self determination there! Can I use a rolleye smiley? Please? Pretty please? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/86 "2004-05-10T17:10:11Z")
(re: dismantling of Israel and/or a one-state solution) > [@Olentzero](#): > > OK, as I said in a previous post in this thread, one’s ethnic origin or religion should not be a determinant as to who stays and who leaves. I am not calling for your family’s expulsion from anywhere. Or the dispossession of _all_ Israelis. But in those cases where Palestinians were clearly dispossessed, every effort should be expended to grant them unconditional right of return. But I don’t **want** to live in a bi-national, bi-cultural state. I **like** living in the Israel I grew up in. tell you what - take a poll of a few (non-Mexican-heritage) Texans. If your results are that most of them are willing to stay where they are, living under **Mexican** rule (Hey, it WAS Mexico until about 150 years ago!) I’ll re-examine my position on changing the way **my** country is run and ruled. (Re: demolitions) > [@](#): > > OK, let’s take just one example and work with that. There is a village in the Acre sub-district called [al-Ghabisiyya](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/al-Ghabisiyya/index.html). According to this [map](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/index.html), al-Ghabisiyya was located deep in the heart of the sub-district, quite far away from the partition [border](http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story580.html) as set by the UN in 1947. Yet the Israelis occupied it on 20 May 1948, and all that remains now of the old Palestinian village is the shell of the mosque. > > Now, will you be so kind as to provide information as to what perceived tactical or strategical reasons lay behind the total destruction of a village that wasn’t even close to the territorial border?True. But if the damage is not reversed (and what evidence is there to believe Israel _will_ reverse it?), then what good is it to claim “We could undo that but the Palestinians can’t undo what they’ve done?” I admit that I didn’t even click the link (yet. I will later. I’m not ignoring history). You’re talking about 1948? I’ll grant you right here and now that we did some lousy things in 1948. How is that relevant to the _Intifadah_? Surely you can come up with some more recent examples. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/87 "2004-05-10T18:31:13Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > (re: dismantling of Israel and/or a one-state solution)But I don’t **want** to live in a bi-national, bi-cultural state. I **like** living in the Israel I grew up in. How very tolerant of you. > [@](#): > > tell you what - take a poll of a few (non-Mexican-heritage) Texans. If your results are that most of them are willing to stay where they are, living under **Mexican** rule (Hey, it WAS Mexico until about 150 years ago!) I’ll re-examine my position on changing the way **my** country is run and ruled. Is there an actual, politically serious movement among the citizens of Texas and New Mexico to even secede from the United States? No. Just because there isn’t such a movement in the Southwest doesn’t mean the movement in Palestine is any less legitimate. > [@](#): > > (Re: demolitions)I admit that I didn’t even click the link (yet. I will later. I’m not ignoring history). You’re talking about 1948? I’ll grant you right here and now that we did some lousy things in 1948. How is that relevant to the _Intifadah_? Surely you can come up with some more recent examples. I’m sure I can, too. But the intifadeh has, as one of its demands, the right of return to the villages from which Palestinian Arabs were expelled, and that goes all the way back to 1948. You claim that the destruction of houses and villages occurred as a result of some perceived tactical or strategic advantage, and I chose one example of such destruction perpetrated by Israel back when the fighting started. If you can’t justify everything Israel did even as far back as its founding, what does that say about the legitimacy of the goal of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East? **Tabby\_Cat** , unless and until you can refute positively my claim that I do not support or condone terrorism as a useful and/or correct tactic in the fight to exercise the right to self-determination, I will have to ignore any examples of such a fight that you provide which expressly refer to the use of such tactics. I will not defend myself against someone who deliberately misinterprets what I am saying. And it seems we disagree on rights, as well, but I’m going to give this one more shot. Rights can exist either in theory or in practice (although to exist in practice they must exist in theory first). _In theory_, the Palestinians, like any other oppressed people or nation on Earth, have the right to self-determination, but they do not have it _in practice_ because Israel is actively preventing them from doing so. For Palestinians to have that right _both in theory and in practice_ they have to fight like hell against Israeli oppression. Where I think you and I differ is that you say if they don’t have the right _in practice_, they don’t have it at all, whereas any well thought-out philosophy would certainly recognize the difference between having it in theory and having it in practice. The lack of the latter does not necessarily imply the lack of the former, unless you disagree with the right of self-determination in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/88 "2004-05-10T18:48:47Z")
The thing is, **Olentzero** , if we follow your solution, within a very short times us Jews would become a minority group. Can you assure us - with 100% certainty - that we would not become a _persecuted_ minority group? A yes or no answer would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/89 "2004-05-10T18:56:49Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > How very tolerant of you. How very nice of you to tell me that I must suffer unwanted changes to my life-style because of injustice you feel was done to some others in the past (hint - I’ve never physically harmed a person in my life, except maybe for a few fist-fights as a school boy. Certainly I’ve never personally done any harm - to body **or to property** - to any Palestinian). How would you like everyone else here telling you how you may or may not live in your own country because of the behavior of your government? This is **my** homeland, **my** society, **my** country, dammit. It was given to me by the f\*\*\*ing United Nations. Plus I can take you on a guided tour here and show you about a zillion places explicitly mentioned in my cultural heritage. Now **LAY OFF**! > [@](#): > > Is there an actual, politically serious movement among the citizens of Texas and New Mexico to even secede from the United States? No. Just because there isn’t such a movement in the Southwest doesn’t mean the movement in Palestine is any less legitimate. Huh? I was talking about your magninimous offer to me that I may stay here as long as you get to choose my form of government for me, and comparing it to an admittedly hypothetical situation closer to home for you. But since you’ve brought up the point about secessions - You wouldn’t happen to want to go a little further back, to the Confederacy, would you? You think the CSA was right and the USA was wrong, and there should now be two separate nations between Canada and Mexico, right? > [@](#): > > If you can’t justify everything Israel did even as far back as its founding, what does that say about the legitimacy of the goal of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East? And if you can’t justify **everything** the USA did during WWII (Internment camps for Japanese-American **citizens** , anyone?), what does that say about the legitimacy of the goal of fighting the Axis in Europe and in the Pacific :rolleyes: Oh, other countries might occasionaly slip and pull an attrocity but it need not reflect on the overall goal? Then why a double standard in the case of Israel? Dani ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/90 "2004-05-10T19:20:05Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Could you expand a little more on the huge role an individual’s family plays in the development of a suicide bomber, The way any parent plays a role in the development of their child. If your parents helped you with your homework the played a role in your educational development. If your parents housed and fed you while you were training to become a martyr, again they played a role. Imagine if the Columbine parents knew of their children’s plans, what would you expect the police to do with them? > [@Olentzero](#): > > and provide cites for the claims of Saddam Hussein providing big money for such things? **Olentzero** , I honestly cannot believe you just asked this. I’m sorry to say but it really reflects on your ignorance of the entire process. So as you requested here are a few cites to show how much money Saddam provided to Palestinians. First, from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm) > [@](#): > > Saddam’s payments: > $10,000 per family > $25,000 for family of a suicide bomber > $35m paid since September 2000 > PALF figures Incase you feel the BBC is some how biased, here’s a link to [FrontPageMagazine](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1309). A third article from [Global Security](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2002/10-190402.html) > [@](#): > > According to a 9 December 2000 Republic of Iraq Radio report, Husseyn decided to transfer one billion euros [$930 million at the time] to Palestinians, \*\*300 million euros of which would go to reward families of “martyrs” \*\* and 700 million of which would “buy food, medicine, and other basic needs for the mujahid people of Palestine.” Iraq also claims to have organized a 6.5-million-strong “Jerusalem Liberation Army,” according to 17 February 2001 Iraqi TV (and numerous subsequent) reports. (Michael Rubin) And lastely, from [The Palestine Chronicle](http://new.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=20020714181114929) > [@](#): > > The popularity of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has increased among the Palestinians due to \*\*the millions of dollars he has granted the families of martyrs in the Intifada. \*\*Many Palestinians reprimand Arab leaders for failing to afford financial aid to the 20-month-old Intifada, but Hussein enjoys great popularity amongst people such as Rawhiyya Ilayyan. If that’s not enough, or quite what you were looking for consider looking at [Results 1 - 10 of about 173,000 for saddam palestinian family from Google](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=saddam+palestinian+family&btnG=Google+Search). ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/91 "2004-05-10T19:35:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The thing is, Olentzero, if we follow your solution, within a very short times us Jews would become a minority group. Can you assure us - with 100% certainty - that we would not become a persecuted minority group? A yes or no answer would be appreciated. Me? What makes you think I could assure you that? I’m not Arafat, I’m not the leader of Hamas or Islamic Jihad or even the mayor of Nablus. I have no hand in the matter. Do I think, on the other hand, that anti-Semitism is so deeply ingrained in the Arab mind because of some ethnic, genetic, or socioeconomic factor, that the minute they perceive they have the upper hand they’ll unleash the Second Holocaust? No. And what would have to happen the Palestinian Jews become a minority? There are 6.8 million of you, as opposed to 3.1 million Palestinians - at least as of 2000, according to this UN [site](http://r0.unctad.org/palestine/statistics.htm) (click on the PDF to see the numbers). Would the Palestinians be so stupid as to say “55 years of oppression justify us slaughtering three Jews for every two of us” and expect the world to give them a standing ovation? I hardly think so. Is it possible that the entire Jewish population of Israel would flee in a mind-numbing panic simply because the Palestinians have gained the right of self-determination over the whole territory in practice? Maybe. But it would be incumbent upon the Palestinians to make it clear that their intent is _not_ wholesale slaughter, that they acknowledge the right, _in practice_, of Jews to remain and live where they please unmolested (pending settlement of claims under the right of return), and not to flinch from punishing any Palestinian Arab that goes to the extreme of practicing terror against the Jewish population of the new state. The State of Israel has whipped up a lot of anti-Semitic fear on the part of the Israeli population and both sides are going to have to work very hard to calm that fear. But it is both possible and necessary. > [@Noone Special](#): > > How very nice of you to tell me that I must suffer unwanted changes to my life-style because of injustice you feel was done to some others in the past “You Palestinians are going to have to leave your land and make room for us Jews because six million of us (never mind the millions of Communists, Roma, and homosexuals) died in the Holocaust in Europe and we want a homeland where that can’t happen again.” You were saying? > [@](#): > > This is my homeland, my society, my country, dammit. It was given to me by the f\*\*\*ing United Nations. But not the Palestinian Arabs. The United Nations partition completely violated the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and the State of Israel took hard advantage of that. How else would you explain the seizure of the Acre sub-district, _territory expressly partitioned to the Palestinian Arabs_\*, by the Israelis at the end of October 1948? > [@](#): > > You wouldn’t happen to want to go a little further back, to the Confederacy, would you? You think the CSA was right and the USA was wrong, and there should now be two separate nations between Canada and Mexico, right? No, of course I don’t think the CSA was right. The Confederacy sought to secede because they wanted to continue the institution of slavery unmolested, and masked that with the issue of “states’ rights” and the right to secede. In other words, they seceded to _continue_ oppression, not to eliminate it. Such is not the case with the Palestinian right to self-determination. > [@](#): > > And if you can’t justify everything the USA did during WWII (Internment camps for Japanese-American citizens, anyone?), what does that say about the legitimacy of the goal of fighting the Axis in Europe and in the Pacific Oh, other countries might occasionaly slip and pull an attrocity but it need not reflect on the overall goal? Oh, hell, I can do you better than that. Surely you’ve heard of the good ship _St. Louis_? You know, the one full of Jewish refugees that got turned away by the United States? Or how about the refusal of the Allied powers to bomb the railroad tracks that led to places like Auschwitz? Simply because I point out the atrocities perpetrated by Israel **in a thread specifically about Israel and the Palestinian intifadeh** doesn’t mean I’m giving other countries’ atrocities a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/92 "2004-05-10T19:46:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The way any parent plays a role in the development of their child. If your parents helped you with your homework the played a role in your educational development. If your parents housed and fed you while you were training to become a martyr, again they played a role. But not a HUGE role. I’d argue the organizations that trained individual Palestinians in the tactics of individual terror played a much larger role than that. Or are you saying that every Palestinian family serves as a terrorist training cell? > [@](#): > > **Olentzero** , I honestly cannot believe you just asked this. I’m sorry to say but it really reflects on your ignorance of the entire process. No, it reflects on the fact that I can’t read everything about everything. Much as I’d like to. Thank you for providing those cites - although it looks like he was providing money to families after the fact, rather than providing money to people in order to become terrorists. Detestable as Saddam Hussien was (and let’s not forget to whom he ultimately owed his position of power), even the money he provided for charity relief - over twice the money he shelled out as rewards - pales in comparison to the annual military and financial aid the US pours into Israel. Saddam Hussein is a mote in the Palestinians’ collective eye, but I think the log in Israel’s is ruining their vision. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/93 "2004-05-10T19:52:09Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > **Tabby\_Cat** , unless and until you can refute positively my claim that I do not support or condone terrorism as a useful and/or correct tactic in the fight to exercise the right to self-determination, I will have to ignore any examples of such a fight that you provide which expressly refer to the use of such tactics. I will not defend myself against someone who deliberately misinterprets what I am saying. Think you missed a double negative there. BTW, you said > [@](#): > > Tabby\_Cat - how else is terrorism manifested in the intifadeh besides individual attacks? What state terrorism is there to support? Implying that the intifadeh is something other than individual attacks. and I replied > [@](#): > > How else is the intefada expressed? No, really. It’s called “uprising” for a reason, Arafat’s encouragement of the individual terrorists are equivalent to state terrorism, if Arafat can be said to be the leader of the “state”. saying that the calls by Arafat to “rise up against the Jews” (you know, Intifadeh, “uprising”, direct translation) were tantamount to state support of terrorist tactics. Your ball. > [@](#): > > And it seems we disagree on rights, as well, but I’m going to give this one more shot. Rights can exist either in theory or in practice (although to exist in practice they must exist in theory first). _In theory_, the Palestinians, like any other oppressed people or nation on Earth, have the right to self-determination, Stop riiiiiiiight there. Did you read what I wrote? Seriously? They DO NOT have that right. Please tell me where in Law, Tradtion, or Nature they got that right from. See my examples of Chief Crazy Buffalo, and High Priest Jethro. Then come back and _when come back, bring refutation._ Hell, bring logic, it’s good enough. And you know what? Stating something over and over again doesn’t make an argument. Summary of your arguments that the Palestinians have the “right to self determination” (that I haven’t refuted so far) _“Yeah, sure they do. It’s just that the Israelis are beating them down with barbed maces and boiling them in oil”_ Y’know, just 'cause this is GD, I’m gonna give a few quotes you used that as a “refutation” that they didn’t have those rights. > [@](#): > > In theory, the Palestinians, like any other oppressed people or nation on Earth, have the right to self-determination… In response to my previous post. Totally no justification, or argument, at all. Uh huh. Real convinced here. > [@](#): > > The Palestinians do have the right to self-determination but not the ability to exercise it. Rights are not solid, tangible objects like oranges. Governments on’t have the power to grant rights or to take them away; they can only state that they either will or will not prevent people from exercising them by use of the laws they enact. You still have those rights whether your government says you can legally exercise them or not. Which was answered, I dunno a dozen posts before that? Yeah, I’ll quote myself. > [@](#): > > "Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature. " - [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) > > If you think that just because one country has a right, that all humans have that right… well, I got nothing to say to you. Good luck in convincing the Chinese that they have the right of free speech. Or you can try to convince Bush that you have the right to take multiple wives, as per many muslim countries. Or you can try to convince the Japanese that they have the right to take up dual citizenship without losing Japanese citizenship. With some real debate from you, and a complete rebuttal by me [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4841543&postcount=66), which you prompty ignored. Great _DEBATES_, not “Grandiose Statements” ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/94 "2004-05-10T20:20:28Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > “You Palestinians are going to have to leave your land and make room for us Jews because six million of us (never mind the millions of Communists, Roma, and homosexuals) died in the Holocaust in Europe and we want a homeland where that can’t happen again.” “You Indians (Native Americans, whatever…) are going to have to leave your land and make room for us Quakers because many of us (never mind the Lutherans, the Jew, etc…) were persecuted in England and we want a homeland where that can’t happen again”. At least the Jewish Culture has demonstrable ties to the land which we are sharing… (and it **will** eventually have to come down to some kind of sharing. Very few Jewish Israelis will even be willing to consider a single-state solution). Oh, and remind me - the reason you killed all the Indians was because they kept on detonating bombs in downtown New York and Philadelphia, right? > [@](#): > > You were saying?But not the Palestinian Arabs. The United Nations partition completely violated the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and the State of Israel took hard advantage of that. How else would you explain the seizure of the Acre sub-district, territory expressly partitioned to the Palestinian Arabs, by the Israelis at the end of October 1948? Er, maybe it has something to do with the fact that we were attacked by the Palestinian Arabs and seven other, sovereign Arab countries for the mere act of accepting the UN resolution? They tried to stop the implementation of the UN resolution of Nov. 29 1947, which established the partition you mentioned. They **lost the war**. Boo hoo. > [@](#): > > No, of course I don’t think the CSA was right. The Confederacy sought to secede because they wanted to continue the institution of slavery unmolested, and masked that with the issue of “states’ rights” and the right to secede. In other words, they seceded to _continue_ oppression, not to eliminate it. Such is not the case with the Palestinian right to self-determination. **Olentzero** , Arbiter of Universal Justice :rolleyes: Do you seriously think a culture’s right to self-determination is continent upon their being Good Guys[sup]TM[/sup]? C’Cause I’d say that rules the Palestinians right out… Oh, and do you really think that the Civil War was all just about Slavery? > [@](#): > > Oh, hell, I can do you better than that. Surely you’ve heard of the good ship _St. Louis_? You know, the one full of Jewish refugees that got turned away by the United States? Or how about the refusal of the Allied powers to bomb the railroad tracks that led to places like Auschwitz? Well, yes, of course I have, but I was trying to avoid mentioning Jews or the Holocaust in this context… I looked for something “Jew-neutral”, so to speak. > [@](#): > > Simply because I point out the atrocities perpetrated by Israel **in a thread specifically about Israel and the Palestinian intifadeh** doesn’t mean I’m giving other countries’ atrocities a pass. You’re doing more than “point out the atrocities perpetrated by Israel”. You’re taking these attrocities - some unfortunately very real, but some, IMO, very tenuous indeed, but never mind - and extending them to a denial of Israel’s right to exist in the manner of its choice, as approved by the United Nations. That’s quite a wide leap. I mean, I fully agree that, eventually, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank will become the Palestinian State. I can actually say I **hope** this happens. I’m no right-winger or a fan of the settlers (or of religious nut-jobs in general). But you’re going a lot further than that. And - to complete a full circuit back to the OP - the **only way** that the Palestinians may maximize their gains (i.e., an independent state on very nearly all of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank) is if they make a **real and dedicated** commitment to eradicating terrorism. Believe me, when that happens, we will be out of there inside of five years on the power of Public Opinion alone (yeah, it actually makes a difference here. :shock: :horror: ). But as long as the terrorism continues, they will get **nothing** (and the Likud will continue to win the elections :() Dani ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/95 "2004-05-10T20:24:46Z")
You know what? Just because I’m so nice, I’ll tell you how Palestinians can get their precious “right of self determination”. It’s called, get the PLA to set up shop in the bit of land that the UN gave them, and then proclaim the “Democratic Republic of Palestine”, and let the Poor Perscuted Palestians vote. WOW! Way to go, right of self determination! (yay) What? That’s not what you meant? You want to take the land that Israel got from the UN? Well, then, that’s simple, too! The “Democratic Republic of Palestine” can just go to the UN, declare war on Israel, and annex the whole of Israel! Throw the Steeking Joos into the sea, wot wot. Now Palestine has the administration of the land Israel is on, and if you have the “Democratic Republic of Palestine” (snicker) the Poor Persecuted Palestinians get their “right of self determination”! Yay! There aren’t enough rolleyes in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/96 "2004-05-10T20:38:38Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Think you missed a double negative there. I’ve parsed that sentence three times and I don’t see it. > [@](#): > > Implying that the intifadeh is something other than individual attacks. Well yeah, there’s protesting, demonstrating, organizing other actions, throwing rocks at tanks, throwing tear gas canisters back at the IDF troops that fired them… there are plenty of other forms of resistance employed by the intifadeh than suicide bombings and sniper attacks. > [@](#): > > saying that the calls by Arafat to “rise up against the Jews” (you know, Intifadeh, “uprising”, direct translation) were tantamount to state support of terrorist tactics. But the terror isn’t carried out by the state, it’s carried out by individuals. I wouldn’t call Arafat the head of the Palestinian state any more than I’d call Hamid Karzai the president of Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > Then come back and _when come back, bring refutation._ Hell, bring logic, it’s good enough. When come back, leave Weebl & Bob references at W&B forums. And tell KnucklzPlugDog I said hello. Rights, even the concept of a right, are social constructs. They don’t come from nature; the natural world has existed for billions of years and gotten along quite well without the concept of “right” - or any abstract concept, for that matter. Rights have come about because we, as humans, have actually created society, and the concept of right became necessary in order for society to progress from the simple tribal hunter-gatherer clans to the worldwide conglomeration we have today. Along the way, people developed the concepts of morals, ethics, duties, responsibilities, and rights in order to assemble coherent theories of how society ought to work, or at least to describe how society worked at the time, depending on your political leanings. “Right”, ultimately, is nothing more than a philosophical shorthand used to defend a person’s, or group’s, ability to do something. It can be used to defend an ability that is exercised freely (the right to free speech, in most countries) or an ability, the free exercise of which is being actively prevented (the right to self-determination in Palestine). Rights do not come from anywhere, they are only abilities that are recognized and the free exercise of which is demanded. A political philosophy, like socialism, recognizes that oppressed nations have the ability to secede from the oppressing nation and to form their own, politically independent, nations. (This is the simple, bare-bones outline.) Those oppressed nations, _because they already have that ability_, therefore have the right of self-determination. How actively the oppressor nation works to prevent the free exercise of that ability (or “right”) will dictate the form and the intensity of the demand (or “struggle”) for the free exercise of that right. And where, exactly, did I say that the dissolution of the State of Israel necessarily entailed kicking every single last Israeli Jew out of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/97 "2004-05-10T21:10:02Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > But the terror isn’t carried out by the state, it’s carried out by individuals. I wouldn’t call Arafat the head of the Palestinian state any more than I’d call Hamid Karzai the president of Afghanistan. Yeah, and Clinton was talking to… who, exactly? The Janitor? > [@](#): > > Rights do not come from anywhere, they are only abilities that are recognized and the free exercise of which is demanded. A political philosophy, like socialism, recognizes that oppressed nations have the ability to secede from the oppressing nation and to form their own, politically independent, nations. (This is the simple, bare-bones outline.) Again, sez you. > [@Dictionary.com](#): > > 6a: Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature. Backed up by our favourite slave trader, Locke (can you tell I don’t like this guy?) > [@John Locke](#): > > And thus the common-wealth comes by a power to set down what punishment shall belong to the several transgressions which they think worthy of it, committed amongst the members of that society, (which is the power of making laws) as well as it has the power to punish any injury done unto any of its members, by any one that is not of it, (which is the power of war and peace) and all this for the preservation of the property of all the members of that society, as far as is possible. But though every man who has entered into civil society, and is become a member of any commonwealth, has thereby quitted his power to punish offences, against the law of nature, in prosecution of his own private judgment, yet with the judgment of offences, which he has given up to the legislative in all cases, where he can appeal to the magistrate, he has given a right to the common-wealth to employ his force, for the execution of the judgments of the common-wealth, whenever he shall be called to it; which indeed are his own judgments, they being made by himself, or his representative. You know, if you’re going to make up definitions, at least have the decency to call it something else not similar to something that could be confused with the real deal. Use, I dunno, “Salmon”. > [@](#): > > Palestinians have the Salmon[sup]1[/sup] to Self determination. > [sup]1[/sup]Abilities that are recognized and the free exercise of which is demanded. - Olentzero, Arbiter of Universal Justice, Legislation, and Salmon Because the right[sup]1[/sup], they aint got. By the way still no argument that they have rights, just a re-definition of the term “right”. Which don’t fool nobody. [sup]1[/sup]6a: Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature. - [Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=right) > [@](#): > > And where, exactly, did I say that the dissolution of the State of Israel necessarily entailed kicking every single last Israeli Jew out of the country? Throwing a man into a plastic shredder doesn’t entail his death either, I guess. I mean, I threw him in, I didn’t _kill_ him. Oh yeah, and just casually toss out the right of the UN to decide on land over which it’s sovereign, whydoncha? I mean, pshaw, Chief Crazy Buffalo and High Priest Jethro kin do et, them Palestinian folks ought ta have them same Salmon.[sup]1[/sup] [sup]1[/sup]Abilities that are recognized and the free exercise of which is demanded. - Olentzero, Arbiter of Universal Justice, Legislation, and Salmon ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/98 "2004-05-10T21:56:52Z")
Sorry, missed this part. > [@Olentzero](#): > > A political philosophy, like socialism, recognizes that oppressed nations have the ability to secede from the oppressing nation and to form their own, politically independent, nations. Even taking this to be true (arguable), the “nation” of Palestine does not have the right to secede from Israel, because none of it is in Israel. A bit hard to have 2 nations in one spot, yeah? Sovereignty, by definition, means “one ruler”. I assume then you mean that they seceded from the UN/British control, and therefore the UN/British did not have the right to dispose of the land. I invite you to secede your back yard from the USA. Hell, get California to claim independance, it’s the 4th richest state in the world anyway. Go ahead and pretend you’re sovereign and don’t need to pay taxes, or something. > [@](#): > > Those oppressed nations, because they already have that ability, therefore have the right of self-determination. Uh huh, so tell me, does Israel have the right to “self determination”, and to secede from Palestine? I mean, unless you’re somehow arguing that Israel ISN’T a nation, and Palestine IS. I mean, since you’re ignoring the whole business of how sovereignty got passed to the UN, how the british annexed the area etc, I get to ignore how the Jews got there. Deal? That’s gonna be some argument, by jove. Oh, yeah, and socialism? > [@](#): > > Let’s sum up: According to Lenin and Stalin it is the goal of socialism, i.e., communism, to control the world: “The aim of socialism is . . . not only to bring the nations closer together, but to merge them.” In order for the communists to capture a “bourgeois” government, however, it is first necessary to disrupt that government. It is necessary to encourage "proletarian civil war against the bourgeoisie in the advanced countries combined with a whole series " of “national liberation movements” in the “oppressed nations.” It is necessary, in short, to encourage civil war in the industrial nation, and secession in the primitive nation. “Mankind can achieve the inevitable merging of nations only by passing through the transition period of complete liberation of all oppressed nations, i.e., their right to secede.” A “whole series” of such secessions will indicate that everything is going according to plan. [The True Story of Social Rights](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/simple.html) From the mouth of Lenin and Marx. You sure you wanna claim socialism? Damn, take over the world… and the Jews thought they had some good stuff going for them, Media Corps and what not. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/99 "2004-05-10T22:17:44Z")
Away from Pinky, the Brain and world domination, and into the real world: > [@](#): > > The observer for Palestine said that in this age of decolonization, it was unacceptable that the Palestinian people continued to languish under settler colonialism imposed by Israel. It was urgent that the international community – particularly the United Nations – took swift and concrete measures towards the realization of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination. Attempts to merely calm the situation on the ground without addressing the core issue of that right would continue to fall short of a genuine solution. [VIEWED NARROWLY AS RIGHT TO SECEDE, SELF-DETERMINATION COULD THREATEN TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF STATES - UN](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/gashc3708.doc.htm) No shit, says I. Note that the observer for Palestine didn’t even make the claim for territory in partitioned Israel, or that they even had the right to self-determination. They made the claim for land with Jewish colonies and all that, which Israel has repeatedly said they would give up, as pointed out repeatedly above, and which I care not to repeat again. I’m sorry, sir, but your pinko communist star is showing. Repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519/100 "2004-05-10T23:47:13Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > **Shodan** , the foundation of Israel was accomplished through the destruction of Palestine. No, you are mistaken there. There was never any such nation as “Palestine”, and neither the land nor the people have been destroyed. The territory was under British control until the UN mandate created the modern state of Israel. > [@Olentzero](#): > > The population of Arabs throughout the whole territory of Palestine numbered one million, and they owned the overwhelming majority of the land, which they were putting to good productive use. And the overwhelming majority of the land currently forming the state of Israel was purchased by Jews. Much of the rest was developed, by draining salt marshes, and was not being used. (Cite: Alan Dershowitz, The Case for Israel). > [@Olentzero](#): > > That the Palestinians were dispossessed of that land, and not called away by broadcasts from surrounding Arab countries, has been well documented using declassified Israeli intelligence documents by Israeli scholars such as Benny Morris and Tom Segev. “Dispossessed” in the sense of selling their land, yes. But you are correct that the neighboring Arab lands have consistently refused to accept the Palestinians. > [@Olentzero](#): > > “The destruction of the state of Israel” does not implicitly carry anti-Semitism within it - any more than the destruction of the Mandate of Palestine in founding Israel could be said to implicitly carry anti-Arab racism within it. I don’t think we are talking about the same things. There are things published every week in the Arab press that are as viciously anti-Semitic as anything ever found in the _Volkische Beobachter_. And it matters relatively little if you call it “anti-Semitism” or not - it is very little comfort to know that when people want to drive you from your home and kill you, they don’t mean anything personal by it. But if a person believes that Israel has no right to exist, supports the infitada, and wants to convince us that he is really not in favor of terrorism, the position is too close to self-contradictory to be much good to discuss. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-intefada-has-failed-its-time-to-surrender/243519.md?page=6)