# "The Invisibles" is probably the great work to come out of the comic book medium. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302 "2007-09-06T22:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/1 "2007-09-06T22:21:18Z")
I’m re-reading _The Invisbles_ right now, and going through it with the _Anarchy for the Masses_ guide to the series. I’ve always loved it, but working through it with the guide peels back a whole new layer of subtlety - so many allusions and references to things that I missed the first time around, and so many tiny, purposeful details are present from the beginning which only come into play toward the end. _The Invisbles_ deals with some very heavy stuff, but it’s successful in never losing sight of the overarching themes (free will vs. control). It’s simultaneously a great comic book and a great social critique of the comic book medium, much in the same way as _Watchmen_. I think that as a work of literature, it’s easily up there with Thomas Pynchon’s finest works, and is probably the greatest work of art to come out of the comic book medium. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/2 "2007-09-06T22:24:54Z")
I am not a real afficianado but I have always thought _Maus_ as the pinnacle of the comic book medium. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/3 "2007-09-06T22:45:48Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I am not a real afficianado but I have always thought _Maus_ as the pinnacle of the comic book medium. [/QUOTE] I’m curious - why? I’ve always thought that _Maus_ got a pass, critically, because it’s about the Holocaust and people are terrified to give anything about the Holocaust (especially something made by a jew) a fair critical treatment. It’s not a bad book, but it hardly does anything exemplary in a medium where far superior books stretch and push the boundaries of narrative via words and sequential art. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/4 "2007-09-06T22:52:03Z")
I love Morrison, and I love the Invisibles, but…no, not at all the greatest comic book ever. Not even Morrison’s best work. (That’d be his Doom Patrol run, which didn’t wallow quite so much in its own perceived importance. Flex Mentallo, which spun off of DP, also rates high.) Invisibles is just another drugged out Morrison musing (I don’t know if Grant was using when he wrote the Invisibles, but it still has the same qualities), caught up far too much in its own importance to actually transcend ‘good’ into ‘great’, let alone ‘greatest’. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/5 "2007-09-06T23:49:03Z")
Interesting take, Tengu. I think that _The Invisibles_ is far superior to _Doom Patrol_, the latter reading like a test run for the former at best; similar concepts and characters, and so on. Morrisson’s drugginess can certainly get out of hand - as with _Seaguy_ or _Vimanarama_ - but _The Invisibles_ keeps things coherent (though mind-bending), while the drugginess is used to tackle plot elements that the human mind is simply incapable of comprehending anyway, such as looking at time from the outside. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/6 "2007-09-07T00:58:58Z")
Invisibles is fun, but all but incomprehensible. If the goal of a work of art is to communicate, it fails. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not as horribly Grant’s-head’s-up-his-own-ass as Seaguy, and I do enjoy Invisibles, but I’d rate his JLA run as solidly better. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/7 "2007-09-07T01:06:51Z")
My favourite comic would probably be _Ghost World_. I’ve never read _The Invisibles_ but I’d put Ghost World up there with great works. I used to love Give Me Liberty but I don’t know if it would stand up now. \*Maus \*is the classic example of the non-comic reader’s comic. I don’t mean that in a sneery way but it is critically lauded generally from the point of view that comics are kids stuff and wow this guy did something adult with a comic, ignoring the rest of the field. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/8 "2007-09-07T01:37:35Z")
I started reading _The Invisibles_ when it first came out, and eventually gave it up because it tripped my “pretentious wankery” meter. But I like a lot of Morrison’s stuff, and Douglas Wolk sang its praises in _Reading Comics_. I don’t think I’ll fall in love with _Invislbles_ – Wolk and I aren’t critically in sync enough for me to think I’ll buy into his adoration, and he even says that he loves the book almost unreasonably. Anyway, I’m going to give it another shot one of these days. _Maus_ is very good, and in some ways has the unfortunate distinction of being obviously good in ways non-comics-fans can enjoy, which means a certain amount of reverse snobbery kicks in. As for best comic? I’d vote for _From Hell_ at this point, which combines a pleasurable amount of pretentious wankery with an amazing structure, indelible characters, evocative artwork, high entertainment value, and exceptional rereadability. That, or _Calvin and Hobbes_, if newspaper comics are allowed. (Don’t know why they wouldn’t be, but I’m not the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/9 "2007-09-07T01:50:53Z")
I admit, I thought _The Invisibles_ was almost unreadable. But I get a lot of that in Morrison’s writing. He just seems so self-indulgent and circular that it fails to get out whatever message is supposed to be in there. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/10 "2007-09-07T03:14:25Z")
Only if you never hear of the words “Sandman” or “Watchmen.” “Maus,” too. Oh, and the phrase “The League of Extrordinary Gentlemen.” Or “V for Vendetta” Or “Swamp Thing” Or “Saga of the Swamp Thing.” Or “The Dark Knight Returns.” Or “The Killing Joke” Or “Bone” Or about a couple of dozen others. But once you ignore about 50 or so various comic books, then you may be right. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/11 "2007-09-07T09:52:14Z")
Should we say it’s the best non(Moore/Gaiman) comic? What do I know, I _liked_ _ **Vimanarama** _. Short and Sweet. On a completely unrelated note, since I don’t usually read comics threads, what do others think of Ellis’s _ **Fell** _? I’m really enjoying it, and it’s a lovely concept too. ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/12 "2007-09-07T10:09:28Z")
> [@](#): > > On a completely unrelated note, since I don’t usually read comics threads, what do others think of Ellis’s Fell? I’m really enjoying it, and it’s a lovely concept too. Fell is all kinds of awesome. The issue where he interogates the loner-shooter guy is one of the greatest single issues of any comic i’ve ever read. I’ve lent it to friends as a stand-alone comic (including friends who _hate_ comics) and about 90% of them have ended up going straight online and buying the Fell TP. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/13 "2007-09-07T10:35:16Z")
> [@](#): > > it tripped my “pretentious wankery” meter Thanks, you’ve summarized my problems with _The Invisibles_ in a single phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/14 "2007-09-07T10:58:21Z")
If you want _good_ Grant Morrison before he got his head stuck up his arse - indeed before his US success, in his 2000AD days - try his _Zenith_ series: what if the world’s only extant super was a dim, spoilt, lazy self-serving pop-star? The second-best deconstruction of superheroes after _Watchmen_. And _Maus_ only got a pass among non-fans of the genre, because hey, it was an allegory for the Holocaust only told in pictures and stuff: maybe these funny papers can pretend to be Lit-Ra-Choor if they try. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/15 "2007-09-07T11:29:42Z")
My scariest comics related moment was when I was in Chicago in 2004. It was the first time I realised there was an _actual_ real-life place called Cabrini Green. It features in Give Me Liberty and I just thought it was some made-up urban nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/16 "2007-09-07T11:40:19Z")
> [@](#): > > If you want good Grant Morrison before he got his head stuck up his arse - indeed before his US success, in his 2000AD days - try his Zenith series: what if the world’s only extant super was a dim, spoilt, lazy self-serving pop-star? The second-best deconstruction of superheroes after Watchmen. True that. Plus - Lovecraft references before they were cool. OOh, that reminds me (British comics, not Lovecraft)- if I was voting for “great work to come out of the comic book medium”, in addition to your _Watchmen_ and _Sandman_ and _From Hell._..man, i’d have to say, Pat Mill’s [Charley’s War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley%27s_War) has to rank up there, at least for me. It’s the _All’s Quiet on the Western Front_ of comics. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/17 "2007-09-07T13:09:46Z")
I love the medium, but comics hasn’t had a “great work” yet, in terms of a single graphic novel. When it does, it won’t be a superhero or sci-fi story. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/18 "2007-09-07T13:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] I love the medium, but comics hasn’t had a “great work” yet, in terms of a single graphic novel. When it does, it won’t be a superhero or sci-fi story. [/QUOTE] Have you read _Fun House_? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/19 "2007-09-07T14:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Have you read _Fun House_? [/QUOTE] No. And I couldn’t find anything about it online. Are you talking about _Fun Home_, though? That was good, but I don’t think it was a “great work”. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/20 "2007-09-07T14:59:17Z")
I’ve got to cast my vote for James Robinson’s _Starman_. The main characters feel like people you know. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302.md?page=2)