# "The Invisibles" is probably the great work to come out of the comic book medium. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302 "2007-09-06T22:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/21 "2007-09-07T15:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] No. And I couldn’t find anything about it online. Are you talking about _Fun Home_, though? That was good, but I don’t think it was a “great work”. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I meant _Fun Home_. I thought it was great. “Great Work”? Like taking its place in the Western Canon alongside Shakespeare? No, not really, but it’s the closest I’ve seen, and a lot more compelling than a lot of novels I’ve read that are considered pretty great. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/22 "2007-09-07T17:48:11Z")
I’ve gotta go with Sandman as being the greatest work in the medium so far. Maus is a great book and Watchmen was certainly groundbreaking but IMHO Gaiman gets the nod to date. Morrison is…spotty. Some of his stuff is brilliant but quite a bit is just odd and pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/23 "2007-09-07T18:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=VCO3] I’m curious - why? I’ve always thought that _Maus_ got a pass, critically, because it’s about the Holocaust and people are terrified to give anything about the Holocaust (especially something made by a jew) a fair critical treatment. It’s not a bad book, but it hardly does anything exemplary in a medium where far superior books stretch and push the boundaries of narrative via words and sequential art. [/QUOTE] You thought wrong. Many like _Maus_ for the same reason many people like _Persepolis_, done by a non-Jew and not about the holocaust. Because it told a great autibiographical _story_, with real feeling, enhanced by the use of comic visuals. It wasn’t a work of technical cartooning genius (and neither is _Persepolis_)- for that, I’d go with Eisner, whose _Contract With God_ trilogy hasn’t really been bettered (and is the real grandfather of the graphic novel). But to claim that the only reason people like it is that they give Jews a critical pass when writing on the Holocaust displays limited thinking. There are more reasons to like a work of art than mere technical wizardry. The real question is ‘does this work of art acoomplish what it set out to do? Is the reader interested in going there?’ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/24 "2007-09-07T19:24:03Z")
I think _Maus_ received a lot of critical acclaim because it exceeded the artificial preconceptions of many reviewers. Many critics who don’t read comic books believe that the media is all Archie and Superman (and not the good stuff). So when they came across _Maus_ they thought it was unique in being an adult comic book story about a serious subject. If they had been familiar with comic books, they would have realized that _Maus_ was good but hardly sui generis. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/25 "2007-09-07T19:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I think _Maus_ received a lot of critical acclaim because it exceeded the artificial preconceptions of many reviewers. Many critics who don’t read comic books believe that the media is all Archie and Superman (and not the good stuff). So when they came across _Maus_ they thought it was unique in being an adult comic book story about a serious subject. If they had been familiar with comic books, they would have realized that _Maus_ was good but hardly sui generis. [/QUOTE] I’m pretty familiar with comic books, at least, I’ve been reading 'em for decades. I liked it a lot. I don’t agree with the notion that the primary reason it got good press was that reviewers were ignorant of the medium. For one, that fails to explain why it got sufficient prominance to be reviewed by those not familiar with the medium. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/26 "2007-09-07T19:31:51Z")
The high-concept gimmick of a serious, hot-button historical event told in cartoon form by anthropomorphic mice. That’s an attention-getter. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/27 "2007-09-07T19:37:38Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] The high-concept gimmick of a serious, hot-button historical event told in cartoon form by anthropomorphic mice. That’s an attention-getter. [/QUOTE] If it wasn’t actually entertaining anyone, and no-one thought it was really good, it would sink out of sight without a trace. There are tons of gimmicky comics out there. There are tons of anthropomorphic funny animal comics out there - indeed, it is a whole sub-genre (shudder, “furries” 😛 ). There are even historically based comics. Few gain notice outside of fandom. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/28 "2007-09-08T00:22:42Z")
[QUOTE=photopat] I’ve gotta go with Sandman as being the greatest work in the medium so far. Maus is a great book and Watchmen was certainly groundbreaking but IMHO Gaiman gets the nod to date. Morrison is…spotty. Some of his stuff is brilliant but quite a bit is just odd and pretentious. [/QUOTE] I thought Sandman was uneven for the first third or so. The plotting and attention to detail are fantastic, but it spends a lot of time down blind alleys that may or may not be relevant – witness the Prez storyline, where it would have been simple for Gaiman to turn Boss Smiley into an incarnation of Desire, and making the storyline count for something at both the micro and macro scales. You can’t beat Alan Moore’s obsessive attention to detail – he manages to weave political lessons, commentary on the superhero genre, a whodunit, and several satisfying plot twists together. Then he throws in a comic-within-a-comic, a biography-within-a-comic, and even gives us a Greek chorus of secondary characters whose reactions tell us more about the world and ourselves. The chapter focusing on Rorschach (whose mask is symmetrical) is _graphically_ symmetrical, for Pete’s sake! The whole thing comes together like a Swiss watch. As for The Invisibles, I thought the pacing and plotting were horrendously jagged and uneven, the characters relied on Godlike powers which aren’t revealed until they seem to need them, the bad guys are constantly being replaced by deeper and deeper conspiracies (Chthulhu was just a front for the Alien Insect Nazi Overlords!) … I just couldn’t put up with it. It felt like Morrison was taking me on a tour of his art exhibit, eagerly pointing out his bizarre conceptual pieces in draft form and then nudging me to say “Do ya GET IT? HUH?” and then hustling me on to the next sculpture. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/29 "2007-09-08T00:55:03Z")
I don’t think any discussion of ‘Great Works’ in the comic book medium can be seriously considered unless Beto Hernandez ‘Heartbreak Soup’ from ‘Love & Rockets’ is in there. Both Jaime and Beto did great work but Beto really delivered with the Tales of Palomar. Also, it would be impossible to not take Dave Sim’s ‘Cerebus the Aardvark’ into account. Arguably, Sim went batshit mad over the last few years (of a twenty-five year work!) and might have lost the title there…but otherwise he’s right up there. It’s not everyone who can write a 6000 page graphic novel and just have it be one small part of a larger tale. At a minimum, I’d offer that both of the above kick Morrison right in the ol’ nads and leave him crawling away crying. And I like some of Morrison’s stuff. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/30 "2007-09-08T01:14:06Z")
[QUOTE=VCO3] I’m re-reading _The Invisbles_ right now, and going through it with the _Anarchy for the Masses_ guide to the series. [/QUOTE] It’s on my list. The rest of this thread is looking for the impossible. I don’t think we can have **one** greatest graphic/comic/whatever novel/book/opus/whatever, any more than we can have the greatest _non_-graphic novel of all time. My comments about comics mentioned here: [ul] [li]_Maus_ - ground-breaking, in that it’s **historical non-fiction**. We didn’t exactly see much of that genre in comics before (oh, OK, if you insist, _Classic Comics_ mebbe). I also happen to think that _Maus_ is well-written and decently drawn. It certainly kept me involved.[/li][li]_V for Vendetta_ - Deserves the hype that _Watchmen_ gets. It’s a more original and thought-provoking story. I think it lost out because it’s too “British”.[/li][li]_Watchmen_ - still damn good. I like it because it turns the classic super-hero comic on its head. [/li][/ul] We seem to have left out _The Dark Knight Returns_ and _Sin City_. I like 'em. OK, they’re comics. so what. All of these books prove that there’s a market for graphic novels. Yay! Of course, I was born 20 years too late to take advantage of any of it. The greatest work to come out of comics books is, I hope, yet sitting on some woman’s or man’s drawing board, waiting for the ink to dry. Even better, it may be still in the mind of a 10-year-old Neil Gaiman wanna-be. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/31 "2007-09-08T02:50:33Z")
I’m writing a comic book right now. That’ll be the great work. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/32 "2007-09-08T03:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] I don’t think any discussion of ‘Great Works’ in the comic book medium can be seriously considered unless Beto Hernandez ‘Heartbreak Soup’ from ‘Love & Rockets’ is in there. Both Jaime and Beto did great work but Beto really delivered with the Tales of Palomar. [/QUOTE] I have Beto’s _Palomar_ hardcover, but I admit I preferred Xaime’s _Locas_, which I checked out of the library. Both were very very good, but I liked Maggie and Hopey better than the residents of Palomar, and I prefer Xaime’s art. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/33 "2007-09-08T03:36:22Z")
Having read the whole series, I agree with **Tengu** and **Candid Gamera**. The Invisibles was too often pretentious, pompous and full of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/34 "2007-09-08T11:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou] I have Beto’s _Palomar_ hardcover, but I admit I preferred Xaime’s _Locas_, which I checked out of the library. Both were very very good, but I liked Maggie and Hopey better than the residents of Palomar, and I prefer Xaime’s art. [/QUOTE] I had a pal in college (late 80s) who used to say ‘Man, Beto is the better writer but Xaime draws the most bustin’ babes.’ Certainly true, and they’re both good authors. I can see how it could go both ways for people. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/35 "2007-09-08T13:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] I had a pal in college (late 80s) who used to say ‘Man, Beto is the better writer but Xaime draws the most bustin’ babes.’ Certainly true, and they’re both good authors. I can see how it could go both ways for people. [/QUOTE] That may be what I thought. His Maggie and Penny Century are always curvy and hot. I always figured Mike Allred had a touch of Xaime in his art, especially his pop art stylings and pulchritudinous ladies. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/36 "2007-09-08T14:15:57Z")
You should give Frank Cho a look as a comic artist. During his University[sup]2[/sup] days he had a ‘letters’ strip in his College Paper and someone wrote in "Why does Frank Cho always draw such objectified, large-breasted women in his strip? His answer? “BECAUSE I CAN, BABY!” ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/37 "2007-09-08T16:22:14Z")
I’m really, REALLY loathe to invoke a statement like the following, but having just completed my Nth re-reading of _The Invisibles_ last night, I just have to say that anyone who writes it off as “pretentious wankery” just didn’t get it. I know, I know, I can hear the groans now, but having spent a lot of time delving into the hidden things that make the book tick and work together, I can understand how it could fly over many readers’ heads (and how it flew over mine the first two times or so that I read through it). If there is one _universally_ great comic work, I think that _Watchmen_ is it - as the ridiculously perfect work that’s an example of its medium, a critique of its medium (comic books) and genre (spandex superhero comics), its moment in world history (the cold war zeitgeist) and medium and genre history, etc. etc. If _Watchmen_ is the _The Great Gatsby_ of comics, then _The Invisibles_ is the _Ulysses_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/38 "2007-09-08T17:31:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I just have to say that anyone who writes it off as “pretentious wankery” just didn’t get it…I can understand how it could fly over many readers’ heads Unless we do get it and it’s your head which is being flown over. Sorry but nobody can declare a victory in a game of “my insight is better than your insight”. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/39 "2007-09-08T17:47:18Z")
[QUOTE=VCO3] I just have to say that anyone who writes it off as “pretentious wankery” just didn’t get it. [/QUOTE] “Pretentious wankery” can be fun. Too much pretentious wankery and I check out, but (despite how it sounds) I don’t really intend it to be a universal dismissal. I have no doubt that _The Invisibles_ is intricate and exciting and mind-openingly complex – but none of that matters (to a particular reader) if they’re not interested enough to keep reading the thing, or re-reading the thing. That’s not an inherent flaw in the work – enough people I respect think _The Invisibles_ is pretty great (though you and Wolk are the only two people I’ve seen cite it as their single favorite work, and even Wolk admits there are flaws) that I’m sure, if I found it more interesting, I might get something out of it. My track record with Morrison, though, makes me think I won’t love it even if I do put enough effort in to respect it more than I do. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302/40 "2007-09-08T18:16:55Z")
I have to give it up for _Sandman_ (at least the last several volumes) and _Fun Home_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-invisibles-is-probably-the-great-work-to-come-out-of-the-comic-book-medium/418302.md?page=3)