# The Iraqi "Timetable" Debacle, or, WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689 "2008-07-08T14:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/61 "2008-07-09T17:42:30Z")
**John** , this might help: [In Iraq, a Surge in U.S. Airstrikes](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/AR2008052203869_pf.html) > [@](#): > > In recent weeks, Katzenberger and other pilots have dramatically increased their use of helicopter-fired missiles against enemy fighters, often in densely populated areas. \*\*Since late March, the military has fired more than 200 Hellfire missiles in the capital, compared with just six missiles fired in the previous three months. > \*\* > The military says the tactic has saved the lives of ground troops and prevented attacks, but the strikes have also killed and wounded civilians, provoking criticism from Iraqis. > > On Wednesday, eight people, including two children, were killed when a U.S. helicopter opened fire on a group of Iraqis traveling to a U.S. detention center to greet a man who was being released from custody, Iraqi officials said… – bolding mine. Much more at source. I think you’ll find that this practice is backfiring on your troops – see all the resentment voiced in that article by ordinary Iraqis. Still more info if you need it: [U.S. Boosts Its Use of Airstrikes In Iraq](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/AR2008011604148.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/62 "2008-07-09T17:54:55Z")
**Red** : Your first cite still does not support the claim that Iraqi civilian deaths have increased recently. And your second cite is about activities in 2007-- when US casualties were at their highest. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that we should bomb the shit out of Iraq. I’m just suspicious of the claim that Iraqi casualties are going up as US casualties are going down. And I’m only suspicious because the claim is made without showing the data. Bombs kill civilians, but foot patrols do, too. I’ll do some more searching later. I’m surprised I couldn’t readily find a site with Iraqi civilian casualty data by month-- I’m sure several such sites exist. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/63 "2008-07-09T17:58:39Z")
[Iraqi civilian deaths rise again](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/15/iraqi-civilian-deaths-rise-again/) And finally, Juan Cole discusses, quite rationally as always, the very topic of this thread and also approaches the “relative calm” that is so being hailed by the MSM. [Wednesday, July 09, 2008](http://www.juancole.com/) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/64 "2008-07-09T18:04:26Z")
**John** , there are many…the most conservative of which is obviously the [Iraq Body Count](http://www.iraqbodycount.org/). Take a look at their [Weekly graph](http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) and you’ll notice that (admittedly small) spike in the past few moths. Moreover, this from them as well: [The Week in Iraq](http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/week-in-iraq/) > [@](#): > > The heart of many families has been ripped out in Iraq, the ‘most violent country in the world,’ according to a report by Global Peace Index released on Tuesday. The index ranked 140 countries, including Iraq, using 24 qualitative and quantitative indicators that combined internal and external factors ranging from a nation’s level of military expenditure to its relations with neighbouring countries and the level of respect for human rights (PUKMedia 22 May). > > In the world’s most violent country, 167 civilians were killed last week -3 of them children- 18 by US forces. On May 21st alone US forces killed 16 Iraqi civilians in two incidents; 2 of the victims were children. > > Over 5,500 civilians have been reported killed in the first 5 months of 2008 and twice as many injured. More will be added to both lists –the dead and the wounded- tomorrow and the day after and every day: each death and each injury adding a little more to the suffering of a nation, a little more hurt to those already hurting. How some call that “progress” or even “victory” is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/65 "2008-07-09T18:15:21Z")
**Red** : That data is not civilian deaths due to US forces. I’m assuming that this claim: “But left unsaid is that the lower US casualty figures in Iraq are coming at the expense of much higher civilian casualties.” Means casualties due to US attacks, not Iraqi on Iraqi violence. I make that assumption based on what was said next: “The reason for this ugly calculus is that in order to keep politically damaging US casualties as low as possible, the US military and the Bush/Cheney administration that gives the generals their marching orders, are resorting increasingly to the use of air power–bombs and rockets and remote controlled, missile-equipped Predator drone aircraft–to attack suspected militant targets.” Yes, it does appear that overall civilian deaths have risen in '08 compared to the second half of '07, but how much of that increase is due to the change in tactic mentioned in your earlier cite-- ie, more Iraqis being killed by US forces. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/66 "2008-07-09T19:09:28Z")
Does it matter? If Iraqis are dying at the hands of Iraqis, then the civil war continues and security cannot be said to be acheived. If they are dying at the hands of Americans, then the insurgency continues, and security is not achieved. At any rate, trust this: that truth is the first casualty of war, and all data from a combat zone is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/67 "2008-07-13T19:15:51Z")
Hey guys, guess what? The United States is not leaving Iraq in the foreseeable future. This is a recording. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/68 "2008-07-14T17:19:19Z")
Maliki has constituents and government, Shia and Sunni alike, that all firmly agree on getting us the hell out of there. For his governments stability it’s imperative that he at least appear to be moving us out whether or not that’s practically viable right now. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689/69 "2008-07-14T17:54:05Z")
[US backs down in negotiations with Iraq](http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080714/GLOBALBRIEFING/108393164/1009/SPORT&template=globalbriefing) > [@](#): > > “US and Iraqi negotiators have abandoned efforts to conclude a comprehensive agreement governing the long-term status of US troops in Iraq before the end of the Bush presidency, according to senior US officials, effectively leaving talks over an extended US military presence there to the next administration,” [The Washington Post reported.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/12/AR2008071201915.html) > "In place of the formal status-of-forces agreement negotiators had hoped to complete by July 31, the two governments are now working on a ‘bridge’ document, more limited in both time and scope, that would allow basic US military operations to continue beyond the expiration of a UN mandate at the end of the year. > > "The failure of months of negotiations over the more detailed accord - blamed on both the Iraqi refusal to accept US terms and the complexity of the task - deals a blow to the Bush administration’s plans to leave in place a formal military architecture in Iraq that could last for years. > > The Sunday Times reported that if the Iraqi government gets its way, the Green Zone in Baghdad may soon be handed over to Iraqi control. [confirmation:](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4ff34de4-513c-11dd-b751-000077b07658.html) > [@](#): > > The White House yesterday said it remained hopeful of striking a deal with the Iraqi government over the future status of US forces in the country but failed to deny reports it had abandoned efforts to negotiate a long-term agreement. There’s time-pressure building here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-timetable-debacle-or-wtf/455689.md?page=3)