# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/1 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")
… and what a glorious day this is. Freedom is at hand for these historically repressed people, for the first time ever! The naysayers and terrorists (aka “insurgents”) will soon learn how wrong they are, and have been. It is now estimated that 60% of the Iraqi population will turn out to vote, eclipsing even our own numbers in the U.S. I find it to be very moving to see the tears of joy from men and women who have never before had this chance. Three hours into the vote, I’ve seen/heard reports of a few attacks against polling stations, but it doesn’t seem to be deterring the honest freedom loving citizens from exercising their rights on this historic day. Long live democracy, and may the terrorists all blow themselves up singularly without taking more innocent lives. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/2 "2005-01-30T07:17:58Z")
Where’s the debate? Other than, “None of this retroactively justifies starting a war for bogus bullshit reasons about nonexistent WMD threats,” I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/3 "2005-01-30T07:21:32Z")
I’m not sure I would go that far, clearly this is a step in the right direction, but no country can be said to have ‘freedom’ while 150,000 or so foreign troops are in occupation. The US government could take a big step to enhance the sovereignty and legitimacy of the incoming government by announcing that all military operations in Iraq in future will be subject to the agreement of the Iraqi government. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/4 "2005-01-30T07:25:50Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Where’s the debate? Feel free to debate _any_ of my celebratory statements. > [@](#): > > Other than, “None of this retroactively justifies starting a war for bogus bullshit reasons about nonexistent WMD threats,” I mean. How about, ALL OF IT DOES? > [@Avenger](#): > > I’m not sure I would go that far, clearly this is a step in the right direction, but no country can be said to have ‘freedom’ while 150,000 or so foreign troops are in occupation. I didn’t say that they _already have freedom_, I said it’s “at hand”. > [@](#): > > The US government could take a big step to enhance the sovereignty and legitimacy of the incoming government by announcing that all military operations in Iraq in future will be subject to the agreement of the Iraqi government. And they will. That’s obviously the next major step. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/5 "2005-01-30T07:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And they will. Will they? Interesting prediction. We’ll see, I’ll give them a week in case they’ve got anything more important on, but I’m sceptical. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/6 "2005-01-30T07:33:29Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Freedom is at hand for these historically repressed people, for the first time ever! Not for the first time ever. They had democracy before 1958 and freedom before the CIA installed Saddam Hussein in 1963. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/7 "2005-01-30T07:33:55Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > I’ll give them a week Way to stack the deck in your favor. :rolleyes: I said, “Next major step”. A month is more realistic. Though I don’t doubt it could happen, given the west friendly politics of the likely winners of this election, not the mention the Iraqi Grand Ayatollah, who is all for the separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/8 "2005-01-30T07:35:13Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Not for the first time ever. They had democracy before 1958 and freedom before the CIA installed Saddam Hussein in 1963. Poor phrasing on my part… 50 years is enough to put the vast majority into the category of “never before”. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/9 "2005-01-30T07:39:26Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Poor phrasing on my part… 50 years is enough to put the vast majority into the category of “never before”. Quick on the Submit again… “never before having the chance to vote in an honest election”. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/10 "2005-01-30T07:41:31Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Way to stack the deck in your favor. :rolleyes: I said, “Next major step”. A month is more realistic. > > Though I don’t doubt it could happen, given the west friendly politics of the likely winners of this election, not the mention the Iraqi Grand Ayatollah, who is all for the separation of church and state. Ok, have a month. Though, if they are going to do it, surely the time is now. Why wait a month? And do you have a cite for the ‘west friendly politics of the likely winners’, you can have a month for that one too if you like as many of the candidates have been reluctant to reveal their names, never mind their policies. Really, though, if all we’re interested in is the freedom of the democracy-loving Iraqi populace, the nature of the government that they freely choose shouldn’t make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/11 "2005-01-30T07:47:34Z")
**Avenger** , give me a break. Do you really think the newly elected politicians will, given the chance, kick the US out immediately? It would equate to an almost certain civil war, after which the elections that _they won_ would mean precisely dick. Political posturing maybe, but the majority won’t vote us out until stability and security is achieved internally. Please stop being argumentative for argument’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/12 "2005-01-30T07:50:58Z")
Well before more die-hard lefties come in here to piss on your parade, yes, if you’re right, this is a good day. I have my doubts as to how safe, fair, and meaningful this election will ultimately be, but if the elected individuals ultimately manage to become the soveirgn leaders, then people can rightfully put it into the “pro” category. I was no fan of this war, but let’s hope you right. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/13 "2005-01-30T07:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you really think the newly elected politicians will, given the chance, kick the US out immediately? It’s a possibility, I tend to think they won’t for the reason you identify. I didn’t realise that all you meant by ‘west friendly politics’ was that they won’t immediately ask us to leave the country, there is a lot that the incoming government can do, and may do, that may not be to the liking of the US. You probably should have posted this in another forum if you just wanted everyone to join you in a love-in rather than, like, a debate 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/14 "2005-01-30T07:53:21Z")
Got news for you: many of the American nay sayers do want this to be a successful election, it will be a good reason to then begin to leave. However, since it is the Shiites are looking to come ahead in the election, it will be a tense situation to have guys that are mostly in favor of Iran, as the new leaders of Iraq. [http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/02/news/iraq.html](http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/02/news/iraq.html) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD In a surprise press conference Sunday, leaders of the Shiite-dominated coalition that is expected to prevail in national elections sought to dispel fears that they are under the secret sway of Iran, or have any desire to create an Islamic theocracy. > . > Speaking in offices that were damaged by a car bomb just six days before, leaders of the United Iraqi Alliance urged disaffected Sunnis to join in the elections for a National Assembly, scheduled for Jan. 30. > . > They also said that if their coalition gains power it would not demand the immediate withdrawal of American troops, but would wait instead for a stronger Iraqi military. > . > Insurgents on Sunday continued their unrelenting campaign to demolish the fledgling Iraqi forces, killing 18 members of the national guard and one civilian with a suicide car bomb near the town of Balad, north of Baghdad. > . > “Our group believes in sharing power with all Iraqi factions,” Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the Shiite cleric who heads the election slate of the powerful alliance, said at the news conference in Baghdad. > . > “We have rejected the idea of a sectarian regime and we believe that Iraq is for all Iraqis.” Appearing with Hakim at the briefing was Ahmed Chalabi…. Just knowing that Chalabi was there just made me loss any trust on what the Shiite leaders are saying. However, pragmatically speaking, I am contented to see them get power and representation that they did not have before, and since I see this development as leading to better relations with Iran, IMO the US getting into Iran is going to be less likely. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/15 "2005-01-30T07:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > However, since it is the Shiites are looking to come ahead in the election, it will be a tense situation to have guys that are mostly in favor of Iran, as the new leaders of Iraq. May or may not be true, but is not in anyway what you cite says 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/16 "2005-01-30T07:59:37Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > You probably should have posted this in another forum if you just wanted everyone to join you in a love-in rather than, like, a debate 😉 Yeah, that’s what I want. :rolleyes: Once again, gimme a break. I’m _trying_ to invite debate. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be fisking your replies. > [@GIGOBuster](#): > > In a surprise press conference Sunday, leaders of the Shiite-dominated coalition that is expected to prevail in national elections sought to dispel fears that they are under the secret sway of Iran, or have any desire to create an Islamic theocracy. Thank you. That’s what I meant by “likely winners”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/17 "2005-01-30T08:06:02Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > May or may not be true, but is not in anyway what you cite says 😕 The involvement of Chalavi is what makes me believe that what the Shiites are saying in the cite is not to be trusted. One can be confused only if one forgets what Chalavi is and is coming from. **Eleusis** seems to also blissfuly ignore the Iranian connections of Chalavi. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/18 "2005-01-30T08:08:53Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Well before more die-hard lefties come in here to piss on your parade, yes, if you’re right, this is a good day. Hey I’m a die-hard lefty and I’ve been rooting for Iraqi elections for almost two years now. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/19 "2005-01-30T08:19:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > **Eleusis** seems to also blissfuly ignore the Iranian connections of Chalavi. Did you even read your own cite? Assuming you meant “Chalabi”, he backs my position in saying that he wants a secular state free of any interference by Iran. > [@your own damn cite](#): > > Appearing with Hakim at the briefing was Ahmed Chalabi, a secular Shiite and former exile who ranks high in the alliance slate of candidates. Chalabi said he had just returned from Tehran, where he told Iranian leaders that they must not interfere with Iraq’s elections > … > Chalabi said in an interview that he told senior Iranian officials, including President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, three things: “First, we do not want any interference in the Iraqi elections; second, the alliance is not about an Islamic republic or a theocratic state, it is about democracy and pluralism, and third, we will need American forces to be in Iraq for the foreseeable future.” To the contrary, **GIGObuster** seems to be blissfully unaware that “Chalabi” is a friend of Iraq, Democracy, and yes, for the forseeable future, the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/20 "2005-01-30T08:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > To the contrary, GIGObuster seems to be blissfully unaware that “Chalabi” is a friend of Iraq, Democracy, and yes, for the forseeable future, the United States. Going a bit far now. I’m not sure I’m up to date on this one, does anyone have the latest on the allegations that the fake ‘intelligence’ that the uS received from Chalabi before the war was fed to him by Iran? I think the FBI was investigating at one point, has that been concluded? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=2)