# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/21 "2005-01-30T08:31:00Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Did you even read your own cite? > > Assuming you meant “Chalabi”, he backs my position in saying that he wants a secular state free of any interference by Iran. > To the contrary, **GIGObuster** seems to be blissfully unaware that “Chalabi” is a friend of Iraq, Democracy, and yes, for the forseeable future, the United States. I almost got stunned, but it is late, your ignorance of what Chalabi really is is a wonder to behold, I have only to claim ignorance in my spelling. Suffice is to say that Ahmed Chalabi, formerly the Pentagon’s favorite Iraqi exile leader, has links to Iranian intelligence (and access to American secrets) and this is of great concern to the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/22 "2005-01-30T08:32:11Z")
**Eleusis**. This is my feedback in response to your OP. I am not going to call you stupid because I’d get banned by the moderators for doing so. However, [Gore Vidal](http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=603697) would say that you have not “advanced much beyond the baboon”. Hello, this is your Wake up Call. You have the nerve to say “what a glorious day this is. Freedom is at hand for these historically repressed people”? Do you even realize that the US invaded Iraq – not giving a shit whether they were going to have “Freedom” or not? Can you even perceive that as the reality of the situation? Can you even imagine that, when it comes to the US Foreign Policy and its national interest while invading Iraq, using words such as “Freedom and Democracy for Iraqis” is nothing but using Ketchup on a cheap hamburger or fries? When are you going to wake up and realize that we invaded Iraq because we intended, from the beginning, TO STAY THERE FOREVER (or at least until their oil and gas resources run out). Of course, the administration cannot say that. So, they use Ketchup, mustard and mayonnaise to push the shit down your throat under the name of “Freedom and Democracy for the Iraqis”. And the baboon is impressed and says: “I find it to be very moving to see the tears of joy from men and women who have never before had this chance” to vote !! I am amazed that you do not see the charade. I assure you, most of those non-voting Iraqis see it clearly. Pleeeease. Wake up. (and while you are at it, wake up the red states too). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/23 "2005-01-30T08:36:11Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Going a bit far now. I’m not sure I’m up to date on this one, does anyone have the latest on the allegations that the fake ‘intelligence’ that the uS received from Chalabi before the war was fed to him by Iran? I think the FBI was investigating at one point, has that been concluded? A good report about the past and the latest shenanigans of Chalabi and the Neocons appears in this report by this Jewish Journal: [http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13528](http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13528) ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/24 "2005-01-30T08:41:22Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > Do you even realize that the US invaded Iraq – not giving a shit whether they were going to have “Freedom” or not? Can you even perceive that as the reality of the situation? No, I can’t. That’s a terrible thing to say, and without calling you stupid, I’d say that you aren’t advanced much past a baboon (I don’t really believe the mods would endorse this). > [@](#): > > Can you even imagine that, when it comes to the US Foreign Policy and its national interest while invading Iraq, using words such as “Freedom and Democracy for Iraqis” is nothing but using Ketchup on a cheap hamburger or fries? No, I can’t. That’s a terrible thing to say, and without calling you stupid, I’d say that you aren’t advanced much past a baboon (I don’t really believe the mods would endorse this). > [@](#): > > When are you going to wake up and realize that we invaded Iraq because we intended, from the beginning, TO STAY THERE FOREVER (or at least until their oil and gas resources run out). Of course, the administration cannot say that. So, they use Ketchup, mustard and mayonnaise to push the shit down your throat under the name of “Freedom and Democracy for the Iraqis”. HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA! That’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard in my life. > [@](#): > > And the baboon is impressed and says: “I find it to be very moving to see the tears of joy from men and women who have never before had this chance” to vote !! I am amazed that you do not see the charade. I assure you, most of those non-voting Iraqis see it clearly. > > Pleeeease. Wake up. (and while you are at it, wake up the red states too). Once again, I’m pretttttyyy shure that calling me a baboon in GD is against the rules. Read the thread and/or shut up, please. What about the VOTING Iraqis??? Do THEY see it clearly? I guess we won’t know for a few days, at least, but the current predictions are that 60% will vote. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/25 "2005-01-30T08:43:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > A good report about the past and the latest shenanigans of Chalabi and the Neocons appears in this report by this Jewish Journal: > > [http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13528](http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13528) For some reason, call me crazy, but the Jewish Journal doesn’t strike as the most reliable of cites. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/26 "2005-01-30T08:45:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I almost got stunned, but it is late, your ignorance of what Chalabi really is is a wonder to behold, I have only to claim ignorance in my spelling. > > Suffice is to say that Ahmed Chalabi, formerly the Pentagon’s favorite Iraqi exile leader, has links to Iranian intelligence (and access to American secrets) and this is of great concern to the FBI. Then educate me, this time with a cite that doesn’t contradict your own post, smart guy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/27 "2005-01-30T08:49:13Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Then educate me, this time with a cite that doesn’t contradict your own post, smart guy. Did you said something about insults? Incidentally, the Jewish Journal in that piece just remarks on what we found out in many discussions in the past here in the SDMB, you are still blisfully ignorant of what Chalabi is. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/28 "2005-01-30T08:56:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Did you said something about insults? > > Incidentally, the Jewish Journal in that piece just remarks on what we found out in many discussions in the past here in the SDMB, you are still blisfully ignorant of what Chalabi is. I’m fairly sure that “baboon” is a worse insult than “smart guy”… hennywheigh, I’m tired, it’s 3am here, I’ll check back tomorrow afterwhich I’m sure there’ll be 100 more posts. In the meantime, if someone can please substantiate with reliable cites that Chalabi is a filthy liar who maintains to this day politics contrary to his most recent claims, I’m willing to listen. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/29 "2005-01-30T09:03:59Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > I’m fairly sure that “baboon” is a worse insult than “smart guy”… > > hennywheigh, I’m tired, it’s 3am here, I’ll check back tomorrow afterwhich I’m sure there’ll be 100 more posts. > > In the meantime, if someone can please substantiate with reliable cites that Chalabi is a filthy liar who maintains to this day politics contrary to his most recent claims, I’m willing to listen. > > Cheers Just go to bed remembering that you supported your arguments with the Ad Hominem logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/30 "2005-01-30T09:06:43Z")
Free and fair election, eh? Hmmmmm. OK, for starters…which party is the “Fuck You, America, Get Out Now!” party? (There may even be such a party, I frankly don’t know, I find it hard to understand how there can be over 100 different parties without some overlap of policys…) If no such party is represented, then the elections aren’t free, now are they, because clearly some Iraqis feel that way. Very clearly. Very direct demonstrations of feeling. Another problem is the unexamined ideal. I tend to agree, democracy is the answer to problems not even thought of yet. But this is not a universally held ideal. The loathesome thug Al Zarqawi, for instance, promotes the view that the very idea of “democracy” is western, Yurpeen, and anti-Islamic. Secular, in a word. For people who adhere to this notion (and I have no idea how many there are in Iraq), the election is not only moot, but an oppressive imposition on the Iraqi people. Given the results of polling cited elsewhere, any likelihood of a pro-American government, freely elected, is vanishingly small. We’ll be lucky if they aren’t actively hostile in the Iranian mode. Is a freely elected enemy in the ME your idea of a splendid result? Isn’t mine. Sure wouldn’t have given up over a thousand of our best to secure such a result. One cannot avoid the feeling that your intention here is to gloat, to present us with a Wonderful Thing that the Bushiviks have wrought. If so, be warned: just because they say so, don’t make it so. You may have noticed this in your dealings with the Bush Regime, their record for straightforward candor and truth is, well, mixed. Lies mixed with bullshit, mixed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/31 "2005-01-30T09:14:52Z")
**Wake Up Call** , I a afraid that this curtain of pretense will not prevent you from being warned: > [@](#): > > I am not going to call you stupid because I’d get banned by the moderators for doing so. However, [Gore Vidal](http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=603697) would say that you have not “advanced much beyond the baboon”. Mr. Vidal is not posting here; you are. You will please respect the courtesy of the board (such as it is). **Eleusis** , you have not _quite_ stepped over the line, but you are also being unnecessarily hostile, especially for someone who has provided no more evidence than the people whose evidence you are rejecting. Cool down, the lot of you. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/32 "2005-01-30T09:44:17Z")
> [@](#): > > In the meantime, if someone can please substantiate with reliable cites that Chalabi is a filthy liar who maintains to this day politics contrary to his most recent claims, I’m willing to listen. Well, here is an article from the noted left-leaning think tank, the Cato Institute, as reported by the administration-bashing Fox Network, laying out a number of troubling issues regarding Chalabi the thief and liar: [Did Iran Use Chalabi to Lure U.S. into Iraq?](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122301,00.html) Now, it is possible that it was all just a misunderstanding. But given that Chalabi is a known thief and liar and that the Bush administration, after investing several millions of dollars to move him into Iraq with his own private army, then decided that he was not sufficiently reliable to support for the leadership position in Iraq (which was the purpose for moving him and his “bodyguards” into Iraq in the first place), I think it is reasonable to look on him as a less than reliable player in this event. Given his history, it would be interesting if you could provide a _reliable_ citation that Chalabi is anything _other than_ a swindler who hoodwinked the neo-cons guiding this administration into attempting to set him up as Hussein’s replacement. Beginning with this puff piece that was pretty well discredited [Ahmad Chalabi: Best Hope for Iraq or Shady Expat Puppet?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179503i) We have had numerous discussion regarding Chalabi that present a lot of references to his dishonesty and lack of “democratic” principles: [Chalabi compound raided… political analysis ?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257294) [Re Chalabi the Bush Admin neo-con hardliners are starting to look like arrogant fools](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=258836) [Chalabi Gave Iranians Top Secret Info - Who Gave it To Him?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259336) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/33 "2005-01-30T12:39:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, for starters…which party is the “Fuck You, America, Get Out Now!” party?.. Talking about the noble freedom fighters again? They had the chance to run candidates, but chose a different route. _shrug_ Fuck 'em. You know, one cannot avoid the feeling that some people are down-right disappointed that the elections managed to take place. Just hasn’t been a good past couple of months for some people, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/34 "2005-01-30T13:19:48Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Talking about the noble freedom fighters again? They had the chance to run candidates, but chose a different route. _shrug_ Fuck 'em. > > You know, one cannot avoid the feeling that some people are down-right disappointed that the elections managed to take place. Just hasn’t been a good past couple of months for some people, it seems. Well, I’m against our involvment in Iran, but OTOH, I’ve found the footage of people voting to be quite powerful. Remember, however, that these people are not voting directly for a new leader… > [@](#): > > Iraqis are electing a 275-member transitional National Assembly, which will draft a new constitution and pick the country’s next president and two vice presidents. The president, in turn, will select a prime minister. > > Voters are also electing members of 18 provincial councils. In addition, residents of the semi-autonomous Kurdish region are electing a Kurdish parliament. If this proves to be a genuine step toward sovereignty for the Iraqi people, then I’ll be one of the first to say, “Well done, Dubya.” In any event, it’s one in the eye for the fundie insurgents, and that’s always a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/35 "2005-01-30T13:23:48Z")
With less than 30 minutes to go, it’s looking like the voter turnout was 70% plus. 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/36 "2005-01-30T13:24:04Z")
Ah, now that **Brutus** is here, we need somebody to post the obligatory OMG BUSH IS TEH SUX0RZZ!!11!! remark. [Iraqis fight a lonely battle for democracy](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1401698,00.html) > [@](#): > > The Bush administration has managed the nearly impossible: to turn democracy into a disreputable slogan. 🙂 just kidding, **Brutus** ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/37 "2005-01-30T13:26:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, now that Brutus is here, we need somebody to post the obligatory OMG BUSH IS TEH SUX0RZZ!!11!! remark He’s already replied to it though, so is it even actually necessary to have someone post it? ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/38 "2005-01-30T13:37:59Z")
Okay, let me atone for my sins by commending the Bush administration for their unwavering commitment and support of the Iraqi elections even in the face of the numerous naysayers. Or, in the words of another quote: [Democracy must be the winner](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1401777,00.html) > [@](#): > > This is not a moment for missionary zeal or blind optimism. But it is a moment to find hope in small advances and to remember that, despite the violence, democracy is the aspiration of Iraqis. We are duty-bound to help bring that about. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/39 "2005-01-30T13:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > If the insurgents wanted to stop people from voting, they failed. If they wanted to cause chaos, they failed. The voters were completely defiant, and although there was never the sense that the insurgency was over, there was a feeling that the people of Baghdad, showing a new, positive attitude, had turned a corner I am just giddy at the results of these elections. It seems like some good is going to come from this war. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/40 "2005-01-30T13:42:32Z")
oops that quote was from [here](http://nytimes.com/2005/01/30/international/middleeast/30cnd-iraq.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=562b2d104653f499&hp&ex=1107147600&partner=homepage) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=3)