# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/41 "2005-01-30T13:46:01Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Hey I’m a die-hard lefty and I’ve been rooting for Iraqi elections for almost two years now. Me too. But at this point, it’s just too little, too late. The ideal time for elections was back in 2003 - we should have started with municipal elections in the smaller cities and towns in May of that year, then the same for the medium-sized and large cities in June and July. Then move on towards national elections once local rule seemed to be taking hold. However, it appears that back then Bremer & Co. were too busy privatizing state industries, removing limits on foreign investment, legislating a flat tax, and in general trying to turn Iraq into Libertaria, to allow actual Iraqis any power to muck up their agenda. Now the price of that arrogance is being paid - partly by us, but mostly by them. These are elections where nobody even knows who’s running, because declaring oneself as a candidate is seen as making a date with an assassin’s bullet - not exactly what you’d call free and open elections. And the main result is already chiseled in stone: the Sunnis want to be back in power, and we’ve allowed them enough time for them to believe that if they can’t retake the country by force, they can certainly use force to prevent the Shiites from exercising power. Every month since we deposed Saddam, the Sunni insurgency has gotten stronger, better armed, and better organized. We needed to hold this election at a much earlier point along this curve, because now the Sunnis don’t believe they have any _need_ to abide by it. Citing the Sydney Morning Herald, which I’m not gonna register for, [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/2005/01/dozens-killed-in-election-day.html) says the following: > [@](#): > > Guerrillas launched mortar and suicide bomb attacks at polling stations throughout Iraq on Sunday as thousands of Iraqis headed to the polls. As many as 27 were dead by 1 pm Iraqi time, with several times that wounded. > > Explosions rocked West, South and East Baghdad, as well as many cities throughout the Sunni heartland–Baqubah, Mosul, Balad, and in Salahuddin Province (7 attacks by noon). There was also an attack in the Turkmen north at Talafar, and in the Shiite deep south at Basra. In Basra, Coalition troops raided the al-Hamra Mosque. Four were killed and seven wounded in an attack in Sadr City. These kinds of statistics were common in the election-poll attacks. > > Turnout seems extremely light in the Sunni Arab areas, where some polling stations did not even open. It was heavier in the Shiite south and in the Kurdish north. [Chris Allbritton](http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/000858.php), reporting from Iraq, clarifies CNN’s visuals: > [@](#): > > 12:29:48 PM Interesting. I’m watching CNN International, and the shots of long lines and happy voters are almost all coming from Iraqi Kurdistan where the voters are motivated and the environment is (relatively) safe. The rub is that CNNi is not identifying the images as coming from Kurdistan; the only way I knew it was from up north was the single shot of someone waving a Kurdish flag. But if you don’t know what the flag looks like (red, white and green bars with a yellow starburst in the center), as I suspect most Americans don’t, you wouldn’t know the context of these images. Shi’ites are also coming out in droves in the south. But Sunnis are staying home. I will be surprised if the Sunni vote hits double digits at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/42 "2005-01-30T13:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Despite Sunday’s violence, election officials said turnout was well above expectations. The interim government had set a target of 50 percent as the barometer of the poll’s success. > > Voters formed long queues in Shi’ite areas and the Kurdish north, where turnout topped 90 and 80 percent, respectively. > > (…) > > The insurgent threat did not stop Samir Hassan, 32, who lost a leg in a Baghdad suicide bombing in October. “I would have crawled here if I had to,” he said. “Today I am voting for peace.” From Reuters. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/43 "2005-01-30T14:09:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Me too. But at this point, it’s just too little, too late. The ideal time for elections was back in 2003 - we should have started with municipal elections in the smaller cities and towns in May of that year, then the same for the medium-sized and large cities in June and July. Then move on towards national elections once local rule seemed to be taking hold. You have GOT to be kidding and/or delusional. An election that spans nine months??? 😕 This is a HUGE victory for democracy WORLD WIDE. As in non-partisan. As in victory for freedom. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/44 "2005-01-30T14:13:06Z")
> [@](#): > > You have GOT to be kidding and/or delusional. > > An election that spans nine months??? Your quote from **RTFirefly** doesn’t refer to \*one \* election. So, no clearly not an election lasting 9 months. You don’t have just one election and call it democracy you know, you have to keep on having them… ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/45 "2005-01-30T14:21:38Z")
OK, good point, **Avenger**. Still, nobody can discount the validity of this great day. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/46 "2005-01-30T14:25:01Z")
hhmmm this must be the thread where neo-cons will gloat over Iraqi elections and describe it as “freedom on the march” ? I’d rather see this as Iraqis managing things and preferably without having to hear americans assume its a victory for Dubya. Because everytime Bush makes a speech about how things are doing well or elections won’t be stopped… it discourages even more Iraqis to beleive they are de facto voting for their future… and not to give the US political points. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/47 "2005-01-30T14:30:25Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > hhmmm this must be the thread where neo-cons will gloat over Iraqi elections and describe it as “freedom on the march” ? > > I’d rather see this as Iraqis managing things and preferably without having to hear americans assume its a victory for Dubya. Because everytime Bush makes a speech about how things are doing well or elections won’t be stopped… it discourages even more Iraqis to beleive they are de facto voting for their future… and not to give the US political points. Ugh, more partisan posturing. I started the thread, and I sure as hell ain’t no “neo-con”. “Freedom on the march” is RIGHT. That’s what it fucking IS. ENJOY IT! ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/48 "2005-01-30T14:36:18Z")
More like BS on the march… but fine see it as you will… Your gloating over it just ruins it for Iraqis. [Cost of Gloating ?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=299670) ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/49 "2005-01-30T14:38:14Z")
Oh yeah, I haven’t mentioned Bush either. I’m no Bush fan. I’m a “libertarian”, not that that matters, because this thread isn’t about me. But why must people continue to bash Bush in the light of a great day? **Rashak Mani** , see it however you like. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/50 "2005-01-30T14:39:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Free and fair election, eh? Hmmmmm. > > OK, for starters…which party is the “Fuck You, America, Get Out Now!” party? (There may even be such a party, I frankly don’t know, I find it hard to understand how there can be over 100 different parties without some overlap of policys…) > > If no such party is represented, then the elections aren’t free, now are they, because clearly some Iraqis feel that way. Very clearly. Very direct demonstrations of feeling. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch. There are such parties and the majority of Iraqis want the US to leave but not “now.” They want a timetable. > [@](#): > > Another problem is the unexamined ideal. I tend to agree, democracy is the answer to problems not even thought of yet. But this is not a universally held ideal. The loathesome thug Al Zarqawi, for instance, promotes the view that the very idea of “democracy” is western, Yurpeen, and anti-Islamic. Secular, in a word. For people who adhere to this notion (and I have no idea how many there are in Iraq), the election is not only moot, but an oppressive imposition on the Iraqi people. The great thing about democracy is that the people actually get to choose their own fate! They can vote for the return of the Caliphate and won’t even have the checkmark pre-printed! > [@](#): > > Given the results of polling cited elsewhere, any likelihood of a pro-American government, freely elected, is vanishingly small. We’ll be lucky if they aren’t actively hostile in the Iranian mode. Is a freely elected enemy in the ME your idea of a splendid result? Isn’t mine. Sure wouldn’t have given up over a thousand of our best to secure such a result. So first the vote isn’t free because the anti-American contingency (or at least the “Leave Now” contingency) isn’t represented but now the likelihood of a pro-American government is vanishingly small? The OP is celebrating Iraqi independence, not the success of the vote relative to US interests. > [@](#): > > One cannot avoid the feeling that your intention here is to gloat, to present us with a Wonderful Thing that the Bushiviks have wrought. If so, be warned: just because they say so, don’t make it so. You may have noticed this in your dealings with the Bush Regime, their record for straightforward candor and truth is, well, mixed. Lies mixed with bullshit, mixed. One cannot avoid the feeling that your intention here is to shit all over the whatever good may there may be in a sea of bad. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/51 "2005-01-30T14:41:39Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Your gloating over it just ruins it for Iraqis. If I’m gloating, it’s only to the naysayers who said it couldn’t be done. I doubt the Iraqis really give a shit what I think :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/52 "2005-01-30T14:42:25Z")
It should be a great day for Iraqis… but I think the political machinations will in the long run spoil it for them. Especially if the election excludes many of them… if it creates new battle lines in a civil war. The voting itself though nice and “patriotic” whatever… is just a vote. It doesn’t change the fact that the US is financing the country and occupies it militarily. It doesn’t change the fact the the post invasion was extremely sloppy and the invasion a fiasco of WMD. ``` If some consider a white wash I'm happy for them... but a good thing doesn't save the overall bad. Especially if americans take it as vindication of Bushie Jrs myoptic foreing military policies. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/53 "2005-01-30T14:43:49Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > I doubt the Iraqis really give a shit what I think :rolleyes: They will if Bush does gloat… IMO of course… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/54 "2005-01-30T15:41:27Z")
As you wish. I don’t feel any need at all to pretend a non-partisan viewpoint, if any administration has earned my contempt, it is this one. They did it the old fashioned way, they lied to me. Repeatedly. Which, of course, brings us to caveat one: we are relying on the veracity of persons with a proven agenda, and a proven record for promoting that agenda with little or no regard for facts. Several of you have shown yourselves willing, nay, eager to forgive such transgressions against truth, to the point of denying thier existence. You are welcome to your kool-aid, but, no, thank you. I don’t much care for the brown kool-aid. And so we come to another tremendous acheivement. One wonders, is this as tremendous an achievement as the handover of autonomy and soveriegnty, so loudly trumpeted some months past? Are we to expect the same marvelous turn-around as we witnessed then? And a question, posed in admitted ignorance: when we measure the turnout in terms of registered voters, are we not measuring the turnout amongst persons who had already decided to participate? But, of course, I thank **Eleusis** for the invitation to rally in appreciation for the vision and wisdom of The Leader. In a strictly non-partisan manner, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/55 "2005-01-30T15:50:29Z")
:rolleyes: :dubious: :smack: Wanna see my Leader Beans? For some reason I expected as much… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/56 "2005-01-30T15:54:11Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > If I’m gloating, it’s only to the naysayers who said it couldn’t be done. Who said an election couldn’t be held in Iraq today? Please point them out. I’ve certainly never claimed that. What I doubt is the _efficacy_ of this election. We’ve had too many alleged turning points already, after which things were supposed to get better: 1. When we deposed Saddam. 2. When Uday and Qusay were killed. 3. When Saddam was captured. 4. When ‘sovereignty’ was transferred. 5. When al-Sadr and his militia were forced out of Najaf. 6. When we ‘cleansed’ Fallujah of insurgents. Why should 1. Today’s election be any less of a fairy tale? We’re talking the triumph of hope over experience here. But if you want to get all excited, go right ahead. All I can say is, for the last 21 months, the pessimists have been consistently right, and the optimists consistently wrong. And even a lot of us pessimists about the war were expecting a quick and successful drive to Baghdad. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/57 "2005-01-30T16:03:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And a question, posed in admitted ignorance: when we measure the turnout in terms of registered voters, are we not measuring the turnout amongst persons who had already decided to participate? I always assumed it was % of _eligible_ voters. I welcome correction. [Roundup: About 72 percent eligible voters cast ballots in Iraq](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-01/30/content_2528012.htm) > [@](#): > > At least 72 percent of eligible Iraqi voters had turned out by 2 p.m. (1100 GMT) nationwide in thecountry’s historic elections, an election official said Sunday. > > ``` > The percentage of registered voters who had gone to the polls in some Baghdad neighborhoods reached 95 percent, said Adel al-Lami, a member of the Independent Electoral Commission. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/58 "2005-01-30T16:06:56Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Not for the first time ever. They had democracy before 1958 and freedom before the CIA installed Saddam Hussein in 1963. I am no fan of Bush and his Iraq policy, but the CIA didn’t install Saddam Hussein in 1963, inasmuch as nobody installed Saddam Hussein in 1963. Hussein wasn’t even in charge of the country until the mid-70s. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/59 "2005-01-30T16:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Electoral official Adil al-Lami did not explain how these figures had been reached. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/4220551.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4220551.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/60 "2005-01-30T16:24:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am no fan of Bush and his Iraq policy, but the CIA didn’t install Saddam Hussein in 1963, inasmuch as nobody installed Saddam Hussein in 1963. Hussein wasn’t even in charge of the country until the mid-70s. Well, you’re right. I was sloppy. [Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/2003/0410saddam.htm) > [@](#): > > United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report. > > While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim. > > In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy… [A Tyrant Forty Years in the Making](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/2003/0314history.htm) > [@](#): > > …Forty years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency, under President John F. Kennedy, conducted its own regime change in Baghdad, carried out in collaboration with Saddam Hussein. [Saddam’s Regime and What Might Follow](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/saddamindex.htm) > [@](#): > > By the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein had risen to high rank in the Iraqi government and in 1979 he finally assumed the supreme leadership. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=4)