# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/61 "2005-01-30T16:30:26Z")
CNN is expressing skepticism, suggesting that turnout figures are inflated. And there’s the rub, no? We have no sources of information that is untainted by agenda. Who’s telling the truth? Who even _knows_ the truth? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/62 "2005-01-30T16:37:46Z")
> [@](#): > > If I’m gloating, it’s only to the naysayers who said it couldn’t be done. In other words, this thread is complete bullshit. It has not in fact been started to congratulate Iraqis on their election, but to show the middle finger to some folks of this board (the OP fails to say who), who the OP feels are insufficiently supportive of the US invasion. Political advertising and a rant, not a debate. Not worthy of any further comment. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/63 "2005-01-30T16:43:38Z")
[A South African commentator](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=2813&art_id=vn20050130113139150C501681&click_id=2813&set_id=1): > [@](#): > > “Transition of power”, says the hourly logo on CNN’s live coverage of the election I guess we’ve finally thrown in the towel on claiming that happened last June 28. > [@](#): > > The big television networks have been given a list of five polling stations where they will be “allowed” to film. Close inspection of the list shows that four of the five are in Shi’ite Muslim areas - where the polling will probably be high - and one in an upmarket Sunni area, where it will be moderate. Sweet. > [@](#): > > The “real” story is outside Baghdad, in the tens of thousands of square kilometres outside the government’s control and beyond the sight of independent journalists, especially in the four Sunni Muslim provinces which are at the heart of Iraq’s insurrection. > > Right up to the election hour, US jets were continuing to bomb “terrorist targets”, the latest in the city of Ramadi, which - although US President George Bush and Britain’s Prime Minister Tony Blair do not say so - is now in the hands of the insurgents as surely as Fallujah was before the Americans destroyed it. > > Every month since Allawi, the former CIA agent, was appointed premier, American air strikes on Iraq have been increasing exponentially. > > There are no “embedded” reporters on the giant American air base at Qatar or aboard the US carriers in the Gulf from which these ever increasing and ever more lethal sorties are being flown. They go unrecorded, unreported, part of the “fantasy” war which is all too real to the victims but hidden from us journalists. > > The reality is that much of Iraq has become a free-fire zone… And since not a single US plane has been shot down during a bombing raid in Iraq, even during the no-fly-zone days, there’s no reason not to embed journalists on these flights. Other than preserving the secrecy of these operations, of course. So, when this parliament assembles, will they set a timetable for US withdrawal, and do without their protector in a civil war, or will they eschew that, and be regarded as collaborators with those who are bombing their country? ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/64 "2005-01-30T22:16:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And since not a single US plane has been shot down during a bombing raid in Iraq, even during the no-fly-zone days, there’s no reason not to embed journalists on these flights. Other than preserving the secrecy of these operations, of course. Not a single U.S. plane has been shot down, of which you know. I was a U.S. Navy Aviation Electronics Technician for four years working on the EA-6B Prowler. I did 3 tours of 3 months each to Prince Sultan Air Base, Saudi Arabia for Operation Southern Watch (OSW) and 2 tours of 3 months each to Incirlik Air Base, Turkey for Operation Northern Watch (ONW); both of which were no-fly-zone missions. Without detail, you are incorrect about the “not shot down”. OSW and ONW went on for 12 years and most people forgot about it. Just because you never read it in a newspaper, saw it on CNN or can’t find a Google search on it, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m curious about the source of your claim. In regards to embedded reporters in cockpits: There are two key factors why they shouldn’t be/aren’t allowed in cockpits on combat missions. One you mentioned; Op-Sec (Operation Security). The other is space. Cockpits of a lot of combat aircraft are no bigger than a gym locker. Thusly, the space is minimum and premium. They don’t build seats in a cockpit for “ride-a-long” puposes. Every seat and it’s correlated functions are important to mission accomplishment. Most of the time, room is available for gatabouts on parallel combat mission aircraft such as refueling tankers (I did this) or AWACS. But those missions are vastly different, and not quite as exciting. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/65 "2005-01-31T03:35:18Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > …Long live democracy… Is it just me, or does a _man_dated > [@](#): > > One in three of every political entity’s candidates must be a woman and a quarter of those elected to the parliament must be women. sound somewhat like an **anti-democratic** policy? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/66 "2005-01-31T04:11:37Z")
An affirmative action policy from the Bush administration, who woulda thunk. Once they´re running someone elses country, they´re practically liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/67 "2005-01-31T04:26:01Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Once they´re running someone elses country, they´re practically liberals. hehe… I noticed that one too. Especially keeping religion out of politics and gun control issues in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/68 "2005-01-31T04:43:56Z")
This should be titled - “A Victory for Peace!” What a great pic - [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050130/450day5\_iraq.jpg](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050130/450day5_iraq.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/69 "2005-01-31T04:45:17Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Hey I’m a die-hard lefty and I’ve been rooting for Iraqi elections for almost two years now. Oh, sorry, didn’t mean to use that large of brush. I just see **Reeder** et al coming in and starting a flame war. Belive me, I was no fan of this war either, but I do think that this poster is right to applaud the elections, and I was suprised that somepeople took issue with this particular thread. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/70 "2005-01-31T06:10:42Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > This should be titled - “A Victory for Peace!” No, a “victory for peace” wouldn’t require crafting bullshit reasons about WMDs as a pretext for an invasion that leveled half the country and left tens of thousands of people dead in its wake. Or are you simply admitting that the Administration’s makeover is complete, and “war is peace” is no longer merely a creation of Orwell? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/71 "2005-01-31T07:01:47Z")
Nashville has the largest Kurdish population in the USA and most of them live in my neighborhood. I had to be out of town for most of the day, but before leaving, my husband and I drove by the polling place about 8:30 a.m. There were already many cars there, television crews, police cars, security vehicles, and Iraqis standing and talking. It was thrilling seeing this moment in history. I think they have been voting for perhaps three days now. I’ve seen my own neighbors on the news dancing in the parking lot – grow men crying, people hugging. One man had spent $1100 on airfare. I guess that included the trip to register and the return flight to vote. Another had driven about twenty hours and faced the long trip back. I am very happy for them. They put me to shame. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/72 "2005-01-31T13:27:36Z")
I remember the first time I went to vote… I was 16 and it was going to be the first time my parents would vote in a long time due to Brazil’s military regime. My Mom was all enthusiastic and saying it was a “privilege” or something similar. Naturally I was quite blasé about the whole affair… 16 years later… she has a very different opinion on voting and democracy. She is mighty pissed at Lula and his was going to be different government. I think it stinks. The same will happen to Iraqis… and naturally much worse due to the violence, US soldiers and terrible corruption. So I’m happy for Iraqi civilians… they managed a show of civility and willingness to change things. By far that is the best that happened. Now its up to whatever anonymous politicians that got elected, to a US administration with dubious motivations, Allawi and his goons, insurgents and terrorists with their own agendas. Nice Election… cloudy future. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/73 "2005-01-31T13:55:54Z")
> [@High Cheese](#): > > Not a single U.S. plane has been shot down, of which you know. I was a U.S. Navy Aviation Electronics Technician for four years working on the EA-6B Prowler. I did 3 tours of 3 months each to Prince Sultan Air Base, Saudi Arabia for Operation Southern Watch (OSW) and 2 tours of 3 months each to Incirlik Air Base, Turkey for Operation Northern Watch (ONW); both of which were no-fly-zone missions. Without detail, you are incorrect about the “not shot down”. OSW and ONW went on for 12 years and most people forgot about it. Just because you never read it in a newspaper, saw it on CNN or can’t find a Google search on it, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m curious about the source of your claim. …surely the source of his claim is obvious, as you stated it yourself-there is nothing in the newspapers, nothing on CNN, and nothing to be found on google. If his claims are incorrect, surely you can find a cite to disprove of it, can’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/74 "2005-01-31T14:16:31Z")
Some people apparently continue to insist that the glass is 15 percent empty as far as this subject is concerned. I expected nothing less. There are always two competing idologies jostling for the upper hand at the turning points of history. That said…pictures of estatic Iraqis clustered around TV cameras proudly displaying their colored forefingers should warm even the most ideologically imprisioned heart. Some will attempt to dismiss the short and long term significance of the day…just as some mocked Lincoln after the Gettysburg address. Or those who thought that it was a huge mistake for Reagan to openly grapple with the Soviet Union. Time will tell who was right…and the losers will desperately spin revisionist history. But that’s here. Go to Basra in 20 years to ask around and see what they think. Just as you can visit Eastern Europe today and see who they thank for their freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/75 "2005-01-31T14:34:29Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > No, a “victory for peace” wouldn’t require crafting bullshit reasons about WMDs as a pretext for an invasion that leveled half the country and left tens of thousands of people dead in its wake. > > Or are you simply admitting that the Administration’s makeover is complete, and “war is peace” is no longer merely a creation of Orwell? Why does everything in your one person world have to be about Bush? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/76 "2005-01-31T14:38:33Z")
Let me help you with that. The operative noun “administration” does not exclusively center on the President’s lies and mendacities, but also includes a wide array of co-conspirators: Cheney, Powell, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld, Chalabi, and others too numerous to mention. That it is why it is common to simply refer to whole miserable bunch as “the admiinistration”. Never be too proud to ask for help, its why we’re here, after all. ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/77 "2005-01-31T14:38:48Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …surely the source of his claim is obvious, as you stated it yourself-there is nothing in the newspapers, nothing on CNN, and nothing to be found on google. If his claims are incorrect, surely you can find a cite to disprove of it, can’t you? Yes I can. I’ll call it personal experience. Note I was in a squadron serving in no-fly-zone missions for one and a quarter years. I can’t give too many details, but I was in a squadron that lost an aircraft in OSW. My cite is this: Me going on aircraft recovery duty to bring back the aircraft, in pieces. Me sifting through most of the electronic components, now in a box and in quarter sized pieces. And trust me, the EA-6B was all electronics. Me, getting a briefing report shortly after the incident. These are my sites. If you need to see something on a piece of paper or your monitor, sorry I cannot give that to you. For reasons of security at the time, and because there was no loss of life, the news barely left the squadron. I had to sign a non-disclosure statement when I left, promising jail time if i disclosed certain aspects of the incident. That statement is still in effect today. ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/78 "2005-01-31T14:39:49Z")
sites=\ ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/79 "2005-01-31T14:41:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let me help you with that. The operative noun “administration” does not exclusively center on the President’s lies and mendacities, but also includes a wide array of co-conspirators: Cheney, Powell, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld, Chalabi, and others too numerous to mention. That it is why it is common to simply refer to whole miserable bunch as “the admiinistration”. > > Never be too proud to ask for help, its why we’re here, after all. Let me help you out - leave your monomania at the door and take a look at the picture - then get over yourself - ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/80 "2005-01-31T14:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Or are you simply admitting that the Administration’s makeover is complete, and “war is peace” is no longer merely a creation of Orwell? Just say it rjung, you want to see Iraq fail to prove Bush wrong. Just say it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=5)