# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/81 "2005-01-31T14:52:29Z")
Hey, I like good propaganda as much as the next guy, I admire craftsmanship in all its many forms. But it is what it is. You can blubber away at what the picture “means” to you, but it means d for diddly squat: it is a picture of woman making the “v” sign with one finger stained. It may be that yesterday marks an epochal turning point in the history of the ME, or it may simply be another clumsy lurch in a international adventure notable mostly for an avalanche of lies and mendacity. I could just as reasonably offer a picture of an entirely empty polling station as being representative of the truth. You slug down a cup of the brown kool-aid, and declare that its root beer, and its yummy. I’m not having any, thank you very much. But your faith that this bit of propaganda is the truth is nothing more than that: faith. You’re welcome to it, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/82 "2005-01-31T14:53:55Z")
> [@High Cheese](#): > > Yes I can. I’ll call it personal experience. Note I was in a squadron serving in no-fly-zone missions for one and a quarter years. I can’t give too many details, but I was in a squadron that lost an aircraft in OSW. My cite is this: Me going on aircraft recovery duty to bring back the aircraft, in pieces. Me sifting through most of the electronic components, now in a box and in quarter sized pieces. And trust me, the EA-6B was all electronics. Me, getting a briefing report shortly after the incident. These are my sites. If you need to see something on a piece of paper or your monitor, sorry I cannot give that to you. For reasons of security at the time, and because there was no loss of life, the news barely left the squadron. I had to sign a non-disclosure statement when I left, promising jail time if i disclosed certain aspects of the incident. That statement is still in effect today. …so you freely admit to breaching your non-disclosure statement to prove a point on a message board? Well done. I worked for a time as Functions Manager at Parliament, learned many a thing that could have won me a debate on a message board, but chose never to reveal it. You freely admit that you signed a non-disclosure statement, and that news barely left the squadron- and then expect that myself, **RTFirefly** , and others should know about it? Please tell me, according to the **public** record, if anything that **RTFirefly** has stated is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/83 "2005-01-31T14:56:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hey, I like good propaganda as much as the next guy, I admire craftsmanship in all its many forms. But it is what it is. You can blubber away at what the picture “means” to you, but it means d for diddly squat: it is a picture of woman making the “v” sign with one finger stained. > > It may be that yesterday marks an epochal turning point in the history of the ME, or it may simply be another clumsy lurch in a international adventure notable mostly for an avalanche of lies and mendacity. I could just as reasonably offer a picture of an entirely empty polling station as being representative of the truth. > > You slug down a cup of the brown kool-aid, and declare that its root beer, and its yummy. I’m not having any, thank you very much. But your faith that this bit of propaganda is the truth is nothing more than that: faith. You’re welcome to it, of course. lets make that _you_ and rjung who want to see Iraq fail to prove Bush wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/84 "2005-01-31T14:56:11Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just say it rjung, you want to see Iraq fail to prove Bush wrong. Just say it. You really ought to be ashamed of saying such a thing, **Ryan**. Do try, won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/85 "2005-01-31T14:58:57Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …so you freely admit to breaching your non-disclosure statement to prove a point on a message board? Well done. I worked for a time as Functions Manager at Parliament, learned many a thing that could have won me a debate on a message board, but chose never to reveal it. You freely admit that you signed a non-disclosure statement, and that news barely left the squadron- and then expect that myself, **RTFirefly** , and others should know about it? Please tell me, according to the **public** record, if anything that **RTFirefly** has stated is incorrect? \…I **can** talk about certain things, i.e. that it happened. _Certain things_. Anyway, I’m not going to anymore because I just think you’re trying to be contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/86 "2005-01-31T14:59:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You really ought to be ashamed of saying such a thing, **Ryan**. Do try, won’t you? Lets see, name one good thing to come from the US invasion to the Iraqi people, it doesn’t matter if you think the whole thing was a disaster, theres one good thing at least for them to have experienced. Don’t try and avoid the question by saying ‘oh they found a whole new reason to hate us etc’ bullshit, I wanna know one positive thing the Iraqis have gained, and which is to a benefit to the US Administration as well. I’m asking because not once have I heard you say anything good come from Iraq, anything at all, talk about objective analysis :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/87 "2005-01-31T15:13:15Z")
**High Cheese** , can you confirm that the plane was in fact _shot_ down, not crashed due to mechanical or pilot failure? There’s no good reason we wouldn’t have been told about a confirmed cause. I’m concerned that there are so many stories about the high turnout, a great day for democracy, Bush is vindicated, etc. but with footnotes at best noting that that’s only true for the Shiites and Kurds. Sunni turnout has been briefly mentioned as near negligible. Some of us expected that, as the long-oppressed groups use whatever approach is available to gain the upper hand, while the Sunnis look at it as simply an institutionalization of their own pending subjugation. If that’s true, it underscores the, well, apprehension many of us have felt about the long-term effects here. The election might well prove to exacerbate ethnic tensions and be a step toward the civil war we all fear. Those tensions have in no way been eased by this. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/88 "2005-01-31T15:29:47Z")
Wow. It appears that even **elucidator** has gone wing nut. Does the moderate left have any moderates left? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/89 "2005-01-31T15:32:54Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > lets make that _you_ and rjung who want to see Iraq fail to prove Bush wrong. Excuse me, but Bush & Co didn’t want this election to happen in the first place. Sistani forced it on this administration a year ago. [Cite.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/01/19/iraqi_shiites_demand_elections_in_peaceful_protest/) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/90 "2005-01-31T15:40:20Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Excuse me, but Bush & Co didn’t want this election to happen in the first place. Sistani forced it on this administration a year ago. [Cite.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/01/19/iraqi_shiites_demand_elections_in_peaceful_protest/) I don’t think that ‘cite’ proves what you think it proves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/91 "2005-01-31T15:40:31Z")
In all fairness, **Squeege** , your cite falls rather short of its advertising. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/92 "2005-01-31T15:57:19Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Wow. It appears that even **elucidator** has gone wing nut. Does the moderate left have any moderates left? As much as I appreciate the back-handed compliment offered, I must decline. Thousands of innocent lives have been squandered in this arrogant adventure, an adventure justified on the basis of disinformation. I see nothing here to be moderate about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/93 "2005-01-31T15:58:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just say it rjung, you want to see Iraq fail to prove Bush wrong. Just say it. Bush is wrong regardless of whether Iraq “succeeds” or not. If, hypothetically, Iraq is able to recover from the invasion that does not mean the invasion was justified. Bush is still a lying, crimina, warmonger either way. It’s really cute that so many people seem to be buying into this cute little staged “election,” by the way. It’s the same people who thought the toppling of the Saddam statue was a spontaneous act by the Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/94 "2005-01-31T16:11:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m concerned that there are so many stories about the high turnout, a great day for democracy, Bush is vindicated, etc. but with footnotes at best noting that that’s only true for the Shiites and Kurds. Sunni turnout has been briefly mentioned as near negligible. Some of us expected that, as the long-oppressed groups use whatever approach is available to gain the upper hand, while the Sunnis look at it as simply an institutionalization of their own pending subjugation. It is a source of concern. However, I wonder how much of the low Sunni turnout is because of philosophical opposition to the elections or because of the extreeme threats of violence in those areas. From what I’ve read a lot of Sunni’s wish they could participate but don’t feel safe enough for that. That holds a bit of a promise for future political engagement once the violence is under control. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/95 "2005-01-31T16:23:46Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I don’t think that ‘cite’ proves what you think it proves. In what way? > [@](#): > > Al-Sistani, the country’s most influential Shiite leader, has rejected a U.S. formula for transferring power through a provisional legislature selected by 18 regional caucuses, insisting on direct elections instead. So, the US wanted appointed caucuses to determine the country’s future, and the shiites (via Sistani) insisted on direct elections, counter to US aims. In what way is that different than what I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/96 "2005-01-31T16:27:34Z")
All our conjectures suffer the same limitation: all sources of information are compromised by the agendas of the sources. Elections are a function of democracy, but they are not magical, they have no divine sources of power. It was not so long ago that these very same people were declaring that the “handover of soveriegnty” was an epochal moment, a huge turning point, etc. etc. Elections could solve Iraq’s troubles if the troubles were caused by a lack of elections. I see no reason to believe this. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/97 "2005-01-31T16:40:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As much as I appreciate the back-handed compliment offered, I must decline. Thousands of innocent lives have been squandered in this arrogant adventure, an adventure justified on the basis of disinformation. I see nothing here to be moderate about. It’s just that you’ve always been reasonable, at worst remaining silent when someone with an opposing view has made a good point. Now it appears that you can’t separate the election from the US admin’s policies or a victory for Iraq from a victory for Bush. I for one think it’s a perfectly valid position to be against the war and against Bush’s policies and yet still view the election coverage as something more than propaganda and the results as something more than lies and coercion. Personally, I think it makes any opposition to the war all the more valid. You’ve said that the 'lies and death,etc." are nothing to be moderate about and I agree with you, which is why I find your immoderation at the election coverage/results all the more bewildering. And you couldn’t “just as reasonably offer a picture of an entirely empty polling station as being representative of the truth.” An empty polling station does not represent the overall “truth” of the day as long as at least 50% of the Iraqis have showed up (and those are high standards). Regardless of how you feel about Bush et al, you can at least celebrate the bravery of a woman who defied the will of someone who had threatened her with dismemberment. She certainly seems happy with the idea of voting. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/98 "2005-01-31T17:08:54Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Excuse me, but Bush & Co didn’t want this election to happen in the first place. Sistani forced it on this administration a year ago. [Cite.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/01/19/iraqi_shiites_demand_elections_in_peaceful_protest/) > [@](#): > > U.S. and Iraqi Governing Council officials say it is not possible to hold free and fair elections before the July 1 deadline given the precarious security situation. U.S. officials hope Annan will support that view following his meeting Monday with chief U.S. administrator for Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, and members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council. Its good to try and actually read what you’ve linked. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/99 "2005-01-31T17:11:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hey, I like good propaganda as much as the next guy, I admire craftsmanship in all its many forms. But it is what it is. You can blubber away at what the picture “means” to you, but it means d for diddly squat: it is a picture of woman making the “v” sign with one finger stained… Christ **elucidator** – the picture is all “propaganda” now? I also noticed that you were the first to bring the ‘good news’ to this thread that voter turn out wasn’t 70% but 60%. Good for you. And – _if that how you see it, you’re welcome to it, of course._ And you’re right, we don’t know where this free election will lead Iraq – not you – not me. We just know the terrorists didn’t win on election day - and maybe some others. Yet, this picture is “propaganda” rather than a representation of brave women in a culture that doesn’t always support it’s women ---- nor is it a representation of personal bravery in the face of real terrorist threats — nor is it even remotely a represenation of the selflessness it must take to vote under those circumstances, nor a representation of the selflessness and supreme bravery it took for those few who voted in cities like like Fallujah and Mosul. Nope, it’s just a woman _‘with one stained finger.’_ Fine. But like I said – it’s your head and your world – call it what you want. For those who want to lurk outside of the inbred opinion at Staightdope – here’s are links to some Iraqi bloggers in Iraq and what those bloggers are saying about Iraq and the Iraqi election. Take a breath and then take a look at what they have to say. > **[IRAQ THE MODEL](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/)** > > New points of view about the future of Iraq and the Middle East. [http://democracyiniraq.blogspot.com/](http://democracyiniraq.blogspot.com/) > **[Roads To Iraq - The Cradle of Mankind](https://www.roadstoiraq.com/)** > > When you travel are you always on the lookout? Do you talk on your cell phone while walking on the street. [http://rosebaghdad.blogspot.com/](http://rosebaghdad.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/100 "2005-01-31T17:17:53Z")
[An historic victory for Democracy](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/31/2335/87390): > [@](#): > > **U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote : > Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror** > > by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2) > > WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam’s presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. > > According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=6)