# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/101 "2005-01-31T17:18:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Bush is wrong regardless of whether Iraq “succeeds” or not. If, hypothetically, Iraq is able to recover from the invasion that does not mean the invasion was justified. Bush is still a lying, crimina, warmonger either way. > > It’s really cute that so many people seem to be buying into this cute little staged “election,” by the way. It’s the same people who thought the toppling of the Saddam statue was a spontaneous act by the Iraqis. Nothing is staged about it, Bush lied about the invasion with faulty intelligence, big deal, Iraq is in the process of having Democracy, thats an achievement in itself. If you can’t be proud of this election because somehow it ‘elevates’ Bush, then you seem to disregard the 8 million Iraqis who voted for this change. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/102 "2005-01-31T17:34:31Z")
The South Vietnamese, unlike Iraqis, were facing an organised and determined enemy with a unified ideology. In Iraq, they’re not. Case closed. Your intentions of trying to link it as another Vietnam are dubious at best. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/103 "2005-01-31T17:37:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The South Vietnamese, unlike Iraqis, were facing an organised and determined enemy with a unified ideology. In Iraq, they’re not. Case closed. Your intentions of trying to link it as another Vietnam are dubious at best. I would question whether there was a “unifying ideology” behind the Vietnamese war effort beyond “We want to run our country ourselves.” Communism was a flag of convenience to some, and was hardly even relevant to a great many of the combatants. However, it is certainly true that the scale and organization of their war effort was orders of magnitude beyond what’s taking place in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/104 "2005-01-31T17:39:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > … Bush lied about the invasion with faulty intelligence, big deal… Stunning. If you can shrug that off as a matter of little consequence, I doubt we have much of anything further to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/105 "2005-01-31T17:44:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nothing is staged about it, Bush lied about the invasion with faulty intelligence, big deal, It’s a big deal for the tens of thousands killed for no reason. It’s a big deal for the millions who have been traumatized and lost their children, spouses, parents, friends and siblings. Mass murder is a pretty HUGE deal, IMO. The intelligence wasn’t faulty, by the way. It was always caveated and Bush just cherry-picked and shaded things to favor a preordained, pre-9.11 agenda. > [@](#): > > Iraq is in the process of having Democracy, thats an achievement in itself. It’s having a fake “democracy” forced upon it by the country that illegally sacked and pillaged it. As far as I’m concerned this is no different than forcing another country to be communist or to be Christians. The Iraqis never asked for this “democracy” and we have zero right to impose it on them. > [@](#): > > If you can’t be proud of this election because somehow it ‘elevates’ Bush, then you seem to disregard the 8 million Iraqis who voted for this change. What “change” did they vote for? Did they “vote” to have the US Military break into their country and kill their children? What choice have they have about anything? The election is fake, but even if it were real, how would it “elevate Bush?” They would be succeeding in _spite_ of Bush’s war crimes not because of them. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/106 "2005-01-31T17:54:40Z")
So how come only 72%, no wait 65%, no wait 60%, no wait 56%, no wait how about we wait for some _ACTUAL NUMBERS_, of Iraqis showed up to vote? Has the allure of democracy gotten so much weaker since the Vietnam era, are Iraqis fraidycats, or is the insurgency more widely based and effective than some would have us believe? It’s difficult not to notice that the people prematurely jumping up and down over this great victory for democracy are the same people who were jumping up and down over what turned out to be totally inadequare, and flat out **wrong** information about Iraq’s WMD’s and WMD related programs. It’d be nice to believe everything’s coming up rosy _this time_, but so far we’ve nothing but the 'gut feelings of people who’ve been wrong before to base that belief on. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/107 "2005-01-31T17:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a big deal for the tens of thousands killed for no reason. It’s a big deal for the millions who have been traumatized and lost their children, spouses, parents, friends and siblings. Mass murder is a pretty HUGE deal, IMO. Elections. They’re on course to a democracy, I don’t see that as ‘dying for nothing’ what is it with these damn Vietnam era quotes that keep cropping up? What next, not in my damn name? Yeah Mass murder is a huge deal, Zarqawi and his thugs need to be defeated. > [@](#): > > The intelligence wasn’t faulty, by the way. It was always caveated and Bush just cherry-picked and shaded things to favor a preordained, pre-9.11 agenda Thats you _opinion_ doesn’t make it fact. Did you know that John Kerry wanted to invade Iraq? That it was necessary? Does that make him part of the Zionist agenda to steal the camel riders Oil? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > It’s having a fake “democracy” forced upon it by the country that illegally sacked and pillaged it. As far as I’m concerned this is no different than forcing another country to be communist or to be Christians. The Iraqis never asked for this “democracy” and we have zero right to impose it on them. Yes, just like the Germans, and the Japanese. :rolleyes: Ahh another person who thinks Eye-rabs aren’t capable of democracy. I’ll ask you what I asked FinnAgain, if you somehow disagree with the Coalitions implementation of Democracy, what do you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/108 "2005-01-31T18:09:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nothing is staged about it, Bush lied about the invasion with faulty intelligence, big deal, Iraq is in the process of having Democracy, thats an achievement in itself. If you can’t be proud of this election because somehow it ‘elevates’ Bush, then you seem to disregard the 8 million Iraqis who voted for this change. Correction. That would be 8 million Iraqis who \*\* RISKED DEATH \*\* to vote for this change. During the last election the first thing I did (after I got up early to vote) was to pull up the weather at work. There was a weather system I rarely see in this area. It consisted of a band of rain, the width of the state, pulling moisture out of the Gulf of Mexico. The way it was rotating it maintained daylong moisture front. I laughed, and I laughed, and I laughed some more. When the people in my office asked me what was so funny I pointed to the screen and, at 8 in the morning, declared the election results. The rural voters (farmers) are use to working in bad weather so they would vote no matter what. The urban voter, which is heavily Democratic, would lose a small percentage of voters to bad weather. Given the large voter turnout in Ohio it would come down to the urban vote. The turnout was great for both parties but the best Democratic turnout was in the Cleveland/Cuyahoga area. I can’t prove the rain was a deciding factor but the only part of the state that didn’t get rain the entire day was the Cuyahoga valley. When I was watching the Iraqi election coverage I saw a reporter interviewing an Iraqi voter. He started out by saying he wasn’t afraid of the terrorists. That could easily sound like so much BS but just then mortars went off nearby and the reporter shrunk down in fear. The Iraqi didn’t even flinch, saying something to the effect “no problem”. 40+ people DIED trying to vote in Iraq in a turnout that will probably be better than most US elections. I don’t know what kind of politicians the Iraqi’s put into office. But what I do know is that the Iraqi’s were pretty damn glad to have the opportunity to decide their own destiny and that included Women voters and women politicians. Zarcowardly cannot kill enough people to stop this process. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/109 "2005-01-31T18:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** > > What “change” did they vote for? Did they “vote” to have the US Military break into their country and kill their children? What choice have they have about anything Did the Nazis? Did the Japanese? Did Afghanistan? The US went out of its way to kill all those pesky children? Choice? They just elected what parties they want in the assembly, I think thats a pretty big choice. > [@](#): > > The election is fake, but even if it were real, how would it “elevate Bush?” They would be succeeding in spite of Bush’s war crimes not because of them. Over 100 parties, the election is not fake, its even monitored by an independent electoral commission, which will be counting the votes. > [@](#): > > **Squink** > > It’s difficult not to notice that the people prematurely jumping up and down over this great victory for democracy are the same people who were jumping up and down over what turned out to be totally inadequare, and flat out wrong information about Iraq’s WMD’s and WMD related programs. It’d be nice to believe everything’s coming up rosy this time, but so far we’ve nothing but the 'gut feelings of people who’ve been wrong before to base that belief on. Thats a pretty generalisation, I didn’t jump for joy about its ‘related programs’ either, but it doesn’t translate as me thinking anything in Iraq is ‘fake’ or ‘provocation’ ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/110 "2005-01-31T18:28:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > . The Iraqis never asked for this “democracy” and we have zero right to impose it on them. > > What “change” did they vote for? Did they “vote” to have the US Military break into their country and kill their children? What choice have they have about anything? > The election is fake, but even if it were real, how would it “elevate Bush?” They would be succeeding in _spite_ of Bush’s war crimes not because of them. There were people who asked for democracy but they had their tongues cut out before being thrown into a mass grave. More importantly, what evidence do you have that the election is fake? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/111 "2005-01-31T18:37:56Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > This should be titled - “A Victory for Peace!” What a great pic - > > [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050130/450day5\_iraq.jpg](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050130/450day5_iraq.jpg) Yeah, I grinned like a little kid when I saw that picture. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/112 "2005-01-31T18:56:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Wow. It appears that even **elucidator** has gone wing nut. Does the moderate left have any moderates left? I kind of doubt it. In the five years before the last presidential election here in the States, I had put only one person on ignore. Somewhat ironically, he was a looney-tunes right-winger who insisted that I ought to live in an alley and eat garbage rather than accept public charity. But since the last three or four months of 2004, I’ve been adding new people constantly. A horde of rabid Bush bashers is making this board more and more unpleasant every week. The sad thing is that two or three of these people are posters I used to enjoy reading even when I disagreed with them vehemently. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/113 "2005-01-31T18:57:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Mass murder is a pretty HUGE deal, IMO. Too strong a word. “Mass murder”? No, an Iraqi Holocaust is not happening, and without death camps and gas chambers – or some other form of round-'em-up, organized killing – I won’t buy “mass murder”. Point lost. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/114 "2005-01-31T19:16:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Too strong a word. “Mass murder”? No, an Iraqi Holocaust is not happening, and without death camps and gas chambers – or some other form of round-'em-up, organized killing – I won’t buy “mass murder”. > > Point lost. Why are you de-Godwinizing something haven’t Godwinized. I didn’t say it was a “Holocaust,” I said it was “mass murder.” mass muder does not require death camps, it just require that lots of people be murdered. And they have been. For nothing. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/115 "2005-01-31T19:20:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Mass muder does not require death camps, it just require that lots of people be murdered. And they have been. For nothing. No malice = no murder. American troops aren’t purposely going around trying to find innocents to kill. I’ll go no further arguing with you, as we have no common ground at all. However, I wanted to make the point for the board at large. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/116 "2005-01-31T19:28:34Z")
A fine point. I suppose the absence of actual malice might be some comfort to the corpses in question. I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/117 "2005-01-31T19:40:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Elections. They’re on course to a democracy, I don’t see that as ‘dying for nothing’ This 'democracy" is not why they died and it’s not a decsion we had any right to make on their behalf. > [@](#): > > Yeah Mass murder is a huge deal, Zarqawi and his thugs need to be defeated. How does the kool-aid taste these days? Are you a big Sean Hannity fan? I bet you are. What do you think about the 150,000 civilians killed by your president for no reason? Does that count as mass murder or is it only murder when someine tries to defend his country from an invasion? > [@](#): > > Thats you _opinion_ doesn’t make it fact. Did you know that John Kerry wanted to invade Iraq? No he didn’t. > [@](#): > > That it was necessary? Kerry never said any such thing. > [@](#): > > Does that make him part of the Zionist agenda to steal the camel riders Oil? :rolleyes: Where are you getting this “Zionist” strawman? I’ve never remotely suggested any such thing. I defy you to find a single post in two years where I’ve said anything whatsoever about Israel or Zionism in relation to the US invasion of Iraq. > [@](#): > > Yes, just like the Germans, and the Japanese. :rolleyes: Japan and Germany attacked us first. > [@](#): > > Ahh another person who thinks Eye-rabs aren’t capable of democracy. Where did I say this? I don’t appreciate being accused of racism and now you’ve intimated both that I am anti-Arab and ant-Semitic in the same thread. I’m going to ask that you retract those kinds of innuendoes or meet me in the pit. > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you what I asked FinnAgain, if you somehow disagree with the Coalitions implementation of Democracy, what do you suggest? We should leave the country and let them do whatever they want. It’s not up to us to make any decision whatever about the future of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/118 "2005-01-31T19:46:25Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > No malice = no murder. American troops aren’t purposely going around trying to find innocents to kill. > > I’ll go no further arguing with you, as we have no common ground at all. However, I wanted to make the point for the board at large. Are you familiar with felony-murder laws? If anyone takes a human life while committing a felony, he is guilty of 1st degree murder whether he had any “malice” or not. The civilian leadership behind this invasion launced an illegal military invasion under false pretenses, knowing it was a lie, and with callous disregard for the lives that were taken in the process. That, my friend, is mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/119 "2005-01-31T19:53:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The US went out of its way to kill all those pesky children? Choice? They just elected what parties they want in the assembly, I think thats a pretty big choice. > > Over 100 parties, the election is not fake, its even monitored by an independent electoral commission, which will be counting the votes. I think some people are being quite dismissive of the big cracks in this election… and its obviously wasn’t due to lack of voters. I’m happy they are willing to beleive they can make a difference by voting. The monitoring just makes sure there isn’t fraud… which there probably won’t be much anyway. I think the cracks will be the anonyomous candidates… the lack of able time for other groups to make their case. The voting went fine… the political process that seems to me to be lacking… and when they start trying to mend their country these cracks will show. Sunni will feel disenfranchised, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/120 "2005-01-31T19:58:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Are you familiar with felony-murder laws? > > If anyone takes a human life while committing a felony, he is guilty of 1st degree murder whether he had any “malice” or not. > The civilian leadership behind this invasion launced an illegal military invasion under false pretenses, knowing it was a lie, and with callous disregard for the lives that were taken in the process. That, my friend, is mass murder. Are you referring to the Bosnian War or the Kosova War? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=7)