# The Iraqi Vote Has Begun... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398 "2005-01-30T07:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/161 "2005-02-01T02:41:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Your credibility now goes down the toilet… A big call from the author of > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Bush lied about the invasion with faulty intelligence, big deal I’ll go out on a limb and wager your assessment of his credibility doesn’t mean much to him (nor, hopefully, anybody else). Partisan sniping aside and without intending to rain on the love-fest, how believable is it that 8 million people would risk their lives to vote in an election featuring anonymous candidates? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/162 "2005-02-01T03:14:43Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > If this proves to be a genuine step toward sovereignty for the Iraqi people, then I’ll be one of the first to say, “Well done, Dubya.” In any event, it’s one in the eye for the fundie insurgents, and that’s always a good thing. What do you mean ‘well done Dubya’? Has it escaped your notice that there wouldn’t be any ‘fundie insurgents’ if dear old Dubya hadn’t invaded their country for no legitimate reason? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/163 "2005-02-01T07:21:58Z")
If the liberation of Iraq was such a grand and noble goal for the nation, why couldn’t the Bush Administration made _that_ the centerpiece of its war-selling efforts back in 2002-2003, instead of dicking around with bullshit about nonexistent WMDs that were going to be turned on the US of A any minute now? (It’s also a pity that the government can’t be held accountable to “false advertising” laws, because the whole Iraqi WMD bullstuff is 100% pure false advertising any way you slice it…) ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/164 "2005-02-01T10:22:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure it’s really cool to vote in a predetermined election. :rolleyes: > > It’ll be legitimate when all Iraqis can vote and not just the ones who will vote the right way. Who did that? The US? Or the terrorists? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I thing the “danger” for these folks is being greatly exaggerated. I don’t believe for a second that they’re “risking their lives to vote.” Then why couldn’t all Iraqis vote? Which is it then? No one was in danger, but it was illegitimate because not everybody could vote? Why do you think it’s valid for Sunnis to threaten other Sunnis with death for simply voting? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/165 "2005-02-01T10:39:22Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > No malice = no murder. American troops aren’t purposely going around trying to find innocents to kill. On the contrary, on this very board serving american troops have expressed that very sentiment. Support our troops. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/166 "2005-02-01T10:45:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Witty, long-legged Nordic beauties who use $5 worth of makeup per year Hope you’ve got room on your couch, my planet tickets are already bought. 😉 Towards the OP: I don’t know anybody who wants the Iraqi society to disolve into total civil war. I don’t know anybody who wants things to be bad so that Bush can be blamed. If this works out, wonderful. I think that, however, it remains to be seen how this will all play out. Give it another 12-36 months and we should have a pretty accurate idea of how the Iraqis will hold up. I do worry, however, that if we manage to turn this sow’s ear into a silk purse the Bush team will claim that they were right all along; right to cherry pick intel, right to fabricate risks of global terrorism, right to run a spendthrift war that ended up with too few troops and too little protection for the people we were supposed to be helping. Still, here’s hoping. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/167 "2005-02-01T10:46:33Z")
Planet tickets??? Yeeeesh. Can’t even spell a joke right. ~walks off muttering~ ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/168 "2005-02-01T12:31:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Towards the OP: I don’t know anybody who wants the Iraqi society to disolve into total civil war. I don’t know anybody who wants things to be bad so that Bush can be blamed. > > If this works out, wonderful. I think that, however, it remains to be seen how this will all play out. Give it another 12-36 months and we should have a pretty accurate idea of how the Iraqis will hold up. Agreed. My thoughts are something like 5 years to truly know. I still wholeheartedly believe that this Iraqi election is a very positive milestone. It disturbs me that certain individuals would denigrate it merely for their hatred of Dubya or their will to be right. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/169 "2005-02-01T12:51:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I thing the “danger” for these folks is being greatly exaggerated. I don’t believe for a second that they’re “risking their lives to vote.” That angle is all just over-cooked hype from the kool-aid saturated US media. If these people really thought there were in danger they wouldn’t be out there. No courage is involved, we’re just being sold a “story” to make this charade seem more legitimate and populist than it actually is. You need to get out of that closet you live in. You’re being asphyxiated by your own farts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/170 "2005-02-01T13:10:39Z")
**Eleusis:** _I still wholeheartedly believe that this Iraqi election is a very positive milestone. It disturbs me that certain individuals would denigrate it merely for their hatred of Dubya or their will to be right._ I agree that we all ought to be happy that the elections worked out as well as they did and hope for progress in the future. However, I don’t think anyone should dismiss all criticism of them as mere “denigration” attempting to discredit the Administration. There were indeed a number of serious problems with the elections, including: - the killing of dozens of voters and intimidation of millions; - the need for extremely restrictive measures to prevent more widespread violence; - the lack of information available to voters, due to fears of pre-election attacks on candidates; - the very skewed participation among different segments of Iraqi society. I find it especially troubling that the Bush Administration is cheerleading so loudly for the election outcome as a sign of success and validation of its own policies—especially since the Administration was originally not even in favor of open elections this soon, and had to be persuaded into them by angry opposition from al-Sistani and his followers, among others. The Administration is consistently ducking blame for what goes wrong in Iraq, and grabbing credit for what goes right. Consequently, they seem to be trying very hard to turn the elections into a new “closure moment”, like the “Mission Accomplished” banner. I worry that the PR goal here is to convince the American public that we’ve now “brought democracy to Iraq” and so we can stop feeling responsible for what happens there. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/171 "2005-02-01T13:54:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > _I find it especially troubling that the Bush Administration is cheerleading so loudly for the election outcome as a sign of success and validation of its own policies— **especially since the Administration was originally not even in favor of open elections this soon, and had to be persuaded** into them by angry opposition from al-Sistani and his followers, among others."_ (bolding mine) Without trying to be too argumentative, do have a cite for that? Granted that most of it has been within the last six months to a year, but the loudest I’ve heard from him on the subject is that “The Elections Must Go On As Scheduled”. It’s been clear (to me at least) from Day 1, that if we ever did invade Iraq, the ultimate goal would be to remove Sadam, build a stable democracy, and then get the hell out. I guess the keyword is stability. If they did want to wait, it was likely a consideration of the anticipated difficulties we saw in the Sunni regions. Nobody in the Evil Empire wanted to deny Iraqis their Og-given right to vote. > [@](#): > > The Administration […] seem to be trying very hard to turn the elections into a new “closure moment”, like the “Mission Accomplished” banner. I worry that the PR goal here is to convince the American public that we’ve now “brought democracy to Iraq” and so we can stop feeling responsible for what happens there. What’s wrong with a “closure moment”? To my eyes, it’s moreso that we’ve brought democracy to Iraq, and now we can focus on helping them build strength and stability as a method of getting ourselves the hell out with a strong democratic ally. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/172 "2005-02-01T14:17:28Z")
**Eleusis:** \*Without trying to be too argumentative, do have a cite for that? \* Sure. Don’t worry about being “too argumentative”—this **is** Great Debates, after all! This article from December 2003 describes the Bush Administration’s original plan for “caucus elections” rather than direct popular voting, and the strong resistance by al-Sistani and others: [Al-Sistani’s Call for Democratic Elections](http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=118&language_id=1) > [@](#): > > As part of the Bush administration’s power transfer plan, U.S. and Iraqi Governing Council officials would choose caucus members from each of Iraq’s 18 provinces who would be responsible for electing individuals to sit in the country’s new national assembly. […] > > The most significant resistance to this plan was offered in a recent edict delivered by Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most prominent Shi’a religious leader in Iraq. Al-Sistani does not accept the proposition that U.S. and Iraqi Governing Council members should have such strong influence over the makeup of the national assembly. Al-Sistani said, “No one has the right to appoint the members of the constitutional assembly. We see no alternative but to go back to the people for choosing their representatives.” […] > > Al-Sistani’s disagreement over U.S. plans is causing a serious dilemma for Bush administration policymakers. The difficulty with complying with al-Sistani’s demands is that if Iraq were allowed to follow a thoroughly democratic path, it is likely that the new government would run counter to U.S. interests. On the other hand, al-Sistani is too influential of a figure to ignore. […] > > It seems then that Washington must acquiesce or at least seriously consider al-Sistani’s demands. Now, I’m glad that the Administration eventually agreed to the “popular-elections” option and followed through on supporting it, but I don’t think we should forget that if they’d had their way in the first place, the elections would probably have been much **less** democratic. **Eleusis:** \*What’s wrong with a “closure moment”? To my eyes, it’s moreso that we’ve brought democracy to Iraq \* Sorry, I really can’t agree that holding one election with anonymous candidates, a lot of voter intimidation, and a highly skewed turnout counts as “bringing democracy to Iraq”. To my mind, that’s exactly the problem with promoting this “closure moment” perspective: it enables us to kid ourselves that merely holding an election somehow equates to establishing democracy. **Lots** of places that we would not consider successful democracies nonetheless hold popular elections. This election didn’t “bring democracy to Iraq” any more than the signing of the Declaration of Independence in July 1776 brought independent sovereignty to the United States of America. Let us hope that it will prove an equally successful first step, but let’s definitely not assume that the hard part is necessarily over. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/173 "2005-02-01T15:24:32Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > I still wholeheartedly believe that this Iraqi election is a very positive milestone. > > It disturbs me that certain individuals would denigrate it merely for their hatred of Dubya or their will to be right. Indeed Tovaritsh ! The situation in Iraq is good, with the recent success it’s double plus good. Iran has always been the enemy. Why do you Nay Sayers worry so much? Eh? You know comrade Bush is always right. Surely you don’t want farmer Saddam back, now do you? Remember Osama bin Snowball is still out there… ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/174 "2005-02-01T16:42:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I find it especially troubling that the Bush Administration is cheerleading so loudly for the election outcome as a sign of success and validation of its own policies…The Administration is consistently ducking blame for what goes wrong in Iraq, and grabbing credit for what goes right. Why do you find it troubling? When something goes right, let’s hear it! That’s only fair, isn’t it? For a campaign with so much bad press, this milestone ought to be lauded and credit be given. But I have no idea who or what you’re referring to - who these cheerleaders are or to whom they’re cheerleading. I’ve seen nothing but tears of happiness and joy, not cheerleading by Bush or anyone else. The tone so far has been a humbled and reflective one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/175 "2005-02-01T17:06:38Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Agreed. My thoughts are something like 5 years to truly know. I hardly think we’ll need to wait _that_ long. I’m thinking we should have a pretty good idea in a year, and quite possibly a lot less than that. I find the idea disingenious that it will take another 5 years, on top of the 2 we’ve invested already, to find out if we screwed up or not in Iraq. It certainly puts off that “accountability moment” to well beyond when those accountable are in office. As the Church Lady used to say, “How convenient.” > [@](#): > > I still wholeheartedly believe that this Iraqi election is a very positive milestone. Well, this IS the right forum for arguing about religious beliefs… > [@](#): > > It disturbs me that certain individuals would denigrate it merely for their hatred of Dubya or their will to be right. You know, I’d love to be wrong. The Iraqi people have been through a lot, both under Saddam and under the U.S. occupation. I was relieved when Uday and Qusay were killed, and delighted when Saddam was captured. (I said so here, so you can look it up.) But I think you’ve got a well-organized, well-armed Sunni insurgency that won’t let go of the idea that Iraq really belongs to them, and it’s a much more effective insurgency than it was even a year ago. They’re thugs and ultra-fundamentalists, and I’m not cheering them on; I think their rule could easily be worse than Saddam’s. But who’s gonna beat these guys? We haven’t been able to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/176 "2005-02-01T17:18:30Z")
A couple of questions asked and so far, unanswered, that I think might offer some insight… First, were there any avowedly anti-American political parties on the ballot? Given that the majority of Iraqis view the Americans as occupiers, one would have to think that at least some significant segment of the Iraqi population would be drawn to such a position. Especially when you consider that there are in excess of 100 political parties on the ballot. If there are, I’ve not heard it mentioned, and one would think one might. Some talking head or another, saying something like “And, of course, the success or failure of the “Fuck the US Out Now Islamic Party” is being closely watched…yadda blah yadda blah blah…” The absence of such a party would indicate, to me at least, that the roster has been Sanitized for Your Protection. Unless you want to imagine that our presence has universal approval. As for friend **Wrath** being unaware of any cheerleading, he must not have seen Geraldo! the other night (a discretion one can only admire), who positively wet himself heaping praise on The Leader for his wisdom and vision. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/177 "2005-02-01T17:19:59Z")
Okay, but Geraldo is NOT the Bush admin… Nor am I sure WHO Geraldo IS… lol ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/178 "2005-02-01T17:27:35Z")
**Wrath:** _When something goes right, let’s hear it! That’s only fair, isn’t it?_ Sure, as long as you honestly address the imperfections and problems too. I don’t think it’s fair to call the elections a “resounding success” without pointing out that they were in many respects very different from what most democracies would consider a “successful” election. Voting for candidates whose names you don’t even know in an election where large sections of the population are too scared to vote, and where a non-negligible number of people actually got killed for campaigning or voting, is an extremely imperfect way to select a government. **Wrath** : \*But I have no idea who or what you’re referring to - who these cheerleaders are or to whom they’re cheerleading. \* Well, I think Bush’s [own remarks](http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1292117.htm) fall into the category of, as I said, cheerleading for the outcome “as a sign of success and validation of its [the Administration’s] own policies”: > [@](#): > > ]President George W Bush has called the Iraqi elections “a resounding success” […] “[T]he world is hearing the voice of freedom from the centre of the Middle East […] We will continue training Iraqi security forces so this rising democracy can eventually take responsibility for its own security […] The American military and our diplomats, working with our coalition partners, have been skilled and relentless […] And their sacrifices have helped to bring Iraqis to this day.” In other words, “congratulations Iraqis, you couldn’t have done it without us, and you can be sure we’ll stick around a while to continue helping you out.” I think that’s really sugarcoating the US invasion and occupation of Iraq; it makes it sound as though we just came over out of the goodness of our hearts, to help them achieve a democracy. We shouldn’t let this revisionism obscure our view of what’s really going on. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/179 "2005-02-01T17:42:43Z")
I still fail to see how offering congratulatory remarks or even sugar-coating amounts to cheerleading. How would you have Bush say it? What would you have him say? Something tells me it doesn’t matter what he says or how he says it - those who want the whole enterprise to fail and/or blow up in Bush’s face will always try to spin any real achievement into a failure. > [@](#): > > We shouldn’t let this revisionism obscure our view of what’s really going on. And what is that? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398/180 "2005-02-01T17:53:17Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > If the liberation of Iraq was such a grand and noble goal for the nation, why couldn’t the Bush Administration made _that_ the centerpiece of its war-selling efforts back in 2002-2003, instead of dicking around with bullshit about nonexistent WMDs that were going to be turned on the US of A any minute now? Clinton’s fault. Remember? > [@](#): > > [The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional, discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to further the objectives I outlined above. **There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy**. These include the maintenance of U.N. Security Council support efforts to \*\*eliminate Iraq’s weapons and missile programs \*\* and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. **United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives** as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm) But let us not get carried away with partisan bickering. Let us hear for Billy-boy, who got the ball rolling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-iraqi-vote-has-begun/287398.md?page=10)