# "The Irish weren't considered white." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171 "2015-11-21T07:45:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/61 "2015-12-08T12:03:47Z")
It can also come back to the old theme in America that we smoke-screen issues with Race, so we can continue to claim that we are blind to Class. This is a big issue with Black Americans, because on one side, no matter how much they struggle to become educated and get their hands on the levers of power, and live peaceful, dignified middle-class lives, from one side there will always be whites who see them as nothing but jumped-up baboons; and Blacks who see them as sell outs. And yes, the Irish were hit with [this same sort of contempt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bringing_Up_Father) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/62 "2015-12-08T13:46:55Z")
> [@Gorilla](#): > > I personally have never met or seen any Latin American person of predominantly (or entirely) European ancestry who was not regarded as “white” Regarded by whom? I gave the example of Ricky Ricardo (Desi Arnaz) being caricatured in brownface. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/63 "2015-12-08T17:37:30Z")
> [@Gorilla](#): > > Perhaps the belief is due to the fact that the word “Hispanic” is frequently used to refer to Spanish-speaking people of indigenous (native) American descent, as well as people of mixed indigenous and European (or African) descent. I suspect that many, if not all, the people in that list that represent the “Hispanic” part of each couple have noticeably indigenous ancestry and that may be the reason for the relationships being called “interracial”. I disagree. While there are arguments over who’s considered Hispanic (Are Spaniards Hispanic? Are Brazilians? Are Belizeans?) I don’t think that most people feel the issue is over native ancestry. A Mexican of purely European ancestry is going to be considered Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/64 "2015-12-09T00:54:01Z")
> [@dude5568](#): > > America is unique in that it has essentially been a white supremacist club since it was started Sure, America is unique in this respect, as long as you don’t count _every other country in the Western Hemisphere_ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/65 "2015-12-09T03:21:35Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > But becoming president was national acceptance beyond that (even though it had been a squeaker election decided by the fiddled results in the Irish-run city of Chicago, which caused some Irish to question if they really had arrived). Straight Dope point of order: Kennedy would have won the election even if Illinois had gone to Nixon. The claim that the Chicago Machine (or the Daily Machine) stole the election for Kennedy has no basis in fact. Kennedy’s 303 votes beat Nixon’s 219 votes. Moving the 27 Illinois votes to Nixon only changed Kennedy’s win to 276 vs 246. Even giving Byrd’s 15 votes to Nixon leaves Nixon with a 261 vote loss. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/66 "2015-12-14T21:08:59Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > The point is, there’s lots of other ways than skin tone of being considered “not us” - Jewish people, to take the most obvious example, are perfectly white and that never saved them from vicious racism. The Irish had a different culture, different brand of religion, and largely a different language in the 19th century - plenty of scope for “othering”. And, poorer than the English too. The attitudes that had been developed while Britain was busy conquering them, simply transferred itself over to Britain’s various colonies, with the English emigrants. Not to hijack the thread, but[really](http://www.jewishmultiracialnetwork.org/)? It’s 2015? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/67 "2015-12-14T22:23:50Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Sure, America is unique in this respect, as long as you don’t count _every other country in the Western Hemisphere_ Slavery has never been legal in Britain (of black people or anyone else), though of course it was perfectly legal in the colonies. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/68 "2015-12-14T23:12:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Slavery has never been legal in Britain (of black people or anyone else), though of course it was perfectly legal in the colonies. **This statement is false.** Though they made it illegal by 1772 to their credit compared to the US. However Englishmen remained a significant of the slave trade to the Americas after this. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/69 "2015-12-14T23:53:02Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Not to hijack the thread, but[really](http://www.jewishmultiracialnetwork.org/)? It’s 2015? I am not quite sure what you are challenging. That Jews come in a variety of ethnic divisions? Sure, but extraordinarily few Europeans were aware of the Falasha or Kaifeng Jews in the 1930s or 1940s. (There may have been a tiny number of Cochin Jews in the UK at that time, but I suspect that they were hardly known to be present by the vast majority of people.) In a thread discussing acceptance of minorities, a casual reference to general attitudes in Europe and North America can be forgiven for not making note of groups of whom Europeans and North Americans were rarely aware. Similarly, if you are challenging the statements regarding ethnic Irish in North America and Australia, I would suggest that while you are correct that it is 2015, the references made were in regard to the periods 1790 - mid 20th century, (Australia) and 1840 - mid-twentieth century (North America). ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/70 "2015-12-15T00:46:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. While there are arguments over who’s considered Hispanic (Are Spaniards Hispanic? Are Brazilians? Are Belizeans?) I don’t think that most people feel the issue is over native ancestry. A Mexican of purely European ancestry is going to be considered Hispanic. I’m not sure that anyone claims to be a Mexican of purely European ancestry, or that that claim is possible. I think that’s what makes one Mestizo, and Hispanic, including Belizeans. AKAIK Spanish and Portugese are Europeans, though, and not Hispanic. Jerry Garcia is European and not Hispanic. Jews were certainly pictured as racially distinct in ways that seem peripherally related to skin tone by anti semitic European artists cartoonists etc. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/71 "2015-12-15T01:14:13Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I’m not sure that anyone claims to be a Mexican of purely European ancestry, or that that claim is possible. I think that’s what makes one Mestizo, and Hispanic, including Belizeans. > > AKAIK Spanish and Portugese are Europeans, though, and not Hispanic. Jerry Garcia is European and not Hispanic. There are _most certainly_ Mexicans who ascribe to be, or are described as, of “pure” European ancestry. Millions of them, 10% or more of the Mexican population. (Guillermo del Toro is a well-known example.) “Mestizo” does indicate dual heritage, European and indigenous, and includes the majority of Mexicans. (Also there are people of “pure” indigenous descent, such as Maya and Nahua.) “Mestizo” does _not_ mean the same thing as “Hispanic,” which includes everyone of any portion of Spanish ancestry, Old World or New, “mixed” or not. [Jerry Garcia](https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/disp/b86fa028062845.56052177aeef5.jpg) was not Mexican, but assuredly Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/72 "2015-12-15T01:54:35Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > There are _most certainly_ Mexicans who ascribe to be, or are described as, of “pure” European ancestry. Millions of them, 10% or more of the Mexican population. (Guillermo del Toro is a well-known example.) > > “Mestizo” does indicate dual heritage, European and indigenous, and includes the majority of Mexicans. (Also there are people of “pure” indigenous descent, such as Maya and Nahua.) > > “Mestizo” does _not_ mean the same thing as “Hispanic,” which includes everyone of any portion of Spanish ancestry, Old World or New, “mixed” or not. > > [Jerry Garcia](https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/disp/b86fa028062845.56052177aeef5.jpg) was not Mexican, but assuredly Hispanic. I guess there is debate about it. But Garcia was old world European, and not from any country colonized by Spain unless you count the US. The term Hispanic (Spanish: hispano, hispánico Galician: hispánico, Basque: hispaniar, Catalan: hispà)[1][2] broadly refers to the peoples, nations, and cultures that have a historical link to Spain. It commonly applies to countries once colonized by Spain, particularly the countries of Latin America. It could be argued that the term should apply to all Spanish-speaking cultures or countries, as the historical roots of the word specifically pertain to the Iberian region. The Hispanic history thing is post facto. AFAIK Garcia used to be a little chagrined to be taken for mestizo when he was a plain old white guy. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/73 "2015-12-15T02:03:59Z")
I’d like to see a contemporaneous description of Garcia as “Hispanic” if you can find it. I can’t remember ever hearing one. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/74 "2015-12-15T03:04:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not quite sure what you are challenging. > > That Jews come in a variety of ethnic divisions? Sure, but extraordinarily few Europeans were aware of the Falasha or Kaifeng Jews in the 1930s or 1940s. (There may have been a tiny number of Cochin Jews in the UK at that time, but I suspect that they were hardly known to be present by the vast majority of people.) In a thread discussing acceptance of minorities, a casual reference to general attitudes in Europe and North America can be forgiven for not making note of groups of whom Europeans and North Americans were rarely aware. > > Similarly, if you are challenging the statements regarding ethnic Irish in North America and Australia, I would suggest that while you are correct that it is 2015, the references made were in regard to the periods 1790 - mid 20th century, (Australia) and 1840 - mid-twentieth century (North America). Yes, I was responding to the line “Jews…are perfectly white”. You are right that, in context, this is a forgivable oversimplification, but it happened to touch a particular button of mine. Could have been fixed by just adding a qualifier, like “_almost all European and American_ Jews…”. On the off chance that **Aspidistra** or anyone else might have thought that statement was actually literally true, I provided a link to an informative website. Again, not trying to hijack. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/75 "2015-12-15T03:25:14Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In a “race, gender, and science” course I took in college, I remember reading some writings from a 19th century racialist who hypothesized that the ruddy color of the Irish and the natural rouge color in women’s cheeks were just milder symptoms of whatever the Negroid race suffered from… Wait, are/were Irish people generally ruddy colored at all? When I think of a country of origin where the people would most likely be pasty-white colored, Ireland would be near the top of the list. Is that inaccurate? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/76 "2015-12-15T14:50:43Z")
> [@Gorilla](#): > > And I personally have never met or seen any Latin American person of predominantly (or entirely) European ancestry who was not regarded as “white” (except in one or two cases where the person was clearly being facetious). On this board, I’ve seen people say with a straight face that Charlie Sheen isn’t white because his father is half _Spanish_. Like, not even Latino, but from the European country of Spain. As laughable that is to me, its hardly a rare viewpoint in my experience. Given the frequency in which I’ve encountered opinions like this, I find it hard to believe you’ve never met anyone say “white” Latinos aren’t white. Do you consider Salma Hayek white? Because her marriage is considered interracial according to [this](http://www.rantlifestyle.com/2014/04/04/25-interracial-celebrity-couples/) article. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/77 "2015-12-15T14:53:36Z")
Just goes to show how imprecise and arbitrary the term “white,” or the idea of race in general, is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/78 "2015-12-15T14:59:26Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > **This statement is false.** Though they made it illegal by 1772 to their credit compared to the US. However Englishmen remained a significant of the slave trade to the Americas after this. Bolding your statements does not dispense with the need for a citation, you know. In 1772 English courts recognized that it had _never_ been legal. They did not “make it illegal.” Of course, serfdom and villeiny were arguably not dissimilar from chattel slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/79 "2015-12-15T16:37:15Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > The term Hispanic…should apply to all Spanish-speaking cultures or countries, as the historical roots of the word specifically pertain to the Iberian region. That’s right. This is the most common application, IME, and the most sensible and useful one, IMO, there being other terms for the other ways one might want to slice. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > I’d like to see a contemporaneous description of Garcia as “Hispanic” if you can find it. I can’t remember ever hearing one. I don’t think the term was really known in American English in the early years of Garcia’s career; the US census didn’t even acknowledge it until 1970. Thus the confusion between mestizo and Hispanic heritage was even more pervasive. I certainly recall people explaining Garcia’s heritage correctly, with the use of the term, by the time of the Dylan tour. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171/80 "2015-12-15T17:12:24Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Wait, are/were Irish people generally ruddy colored at all? When I think of a country of origin where the people would most likely be pasty-white colored, Ireland would be near the top of the list. Is that inaccurate? Do ruddiness and pastiness not kinda go hand in hand? You appear red after being in the sun or after exertion because your baseline colour is lighter? Maybe I am wide of the mark but they don’t seem at odds. Nowadays anyway lots of Irish people are what I would describe as ruddy but (“native”) Irish people run the gamut from alabaster to quite sallow, almost Iberian looking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irish-werent-considered-white/738171.md?page=5)