# The Irishman SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** netflix, movies\ **Created:** [November 21, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750 "2019-11-21T02:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/41 "2019-12-06T17:09:38Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Your uncle didn’t die in mysterious circumstances, did he? That might be a clue… No he died from heart trouble at age 80. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/42 "2019-12-06T19:47:02Z")
My take… it’s good. It’s a swan song… but… This should have been Jesse Plemmons star turn and he should have played Sheeran. The de-aging only worked on DeNiro to make his age nebulous in every scene… was he 40 in WW2? In their meet scene Pesci keeps calling DeNiro “kid”… they look the same age? It’s just face vague-ing not de-aging. You cast Plemmons who actually looks kind of like Sheeran–Sheeran wasn’t well-spoken, he’s a mumbly brute…which is more in Plemmons wheel-house. I think it was a huge missed opportunity that I wish Scorese had taken. I get that DeNiro was the one who wanted to get this made but…he should not have played the lead. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/43 "2019-12-06T23:22:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Moderator Note > > The above post was originally posted to the “Russian Doll” thread. Since it obviously was a comment about The Irishman, I moved it to this thread. Let me know if something else was intended. > > Colibri Never did have great eye/hand coordination. 😉 Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/44 "2019-12-07T14:56:16Z")
at the start of Goodfellas the De Niro character Jimmy Conway was supposed to be 30 but De Niro was 47 when the movie came out. As far as a former mafia guy bragging about his exploits that may not be true, Henry Hill always said he never killed anyone but people doubt that claim since he worked with the mob for over 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/45 "2019-12-07T15:51:31Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > As far as a former mafia guy bragging about his exploits that may not be true, Henry Hill always said he never killed anyone but people doubt that claim since he worked with the mob for over 20 years. Of course. Hill was in witness protection (until they threw him out of it) so wouldn’t want to confess to any murders. In any case, Sheeran would be the opposite case since no one apparently ever suspected him of any murders until he claimed to have committed not one but two of the most famous hits in history. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/46 "2019-12-09T03:40:26Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I’m not gonna slag the acting of De Niro or Pacino because they can both act, but oh my god the CGI de-aging so didn’t work. People have mentioned, they still moved like old men and mostly looked like old men. At no point did De Niro look anything less than 50 years old, and there were times when he should have (being called “kid,” baptiziing his children). While mostly I thought the cinematography was great, there comes a time to cut. Get on the plane, get off the plane, we don’t need to see the plane take off, fly, and land, and then take off and land again. Yeah, those were really nice landings (I heard you paint runways). But, enough. There was also a long, uncomfortable, and totally redundant scene where it looked like somebody’s needle got stuck in the groove, they’ve said it, they’ve said it again, get out of this scene. Writers get told all the time, “Kill your darlings.” I think there were some darlings here that needed killing. > > It could have been a normal length. It could have had age-appropriate actors. I do get that oh, this is Scorcese, Pacino, De Niro, and Pesci but if it’s not entertaining, fuhgeddabout it. There are better organized crime movies. > > And quite frankly it’s hard for me to think of De Niro as an Irishman, let alone THE Irishman. This was made a lot harder by having to look at him. > > Come on guys, retire already. Let somebody from a younger generation get famous. > > I’m not even gonna mention the scene where I first thought Hoffa was wearing a Nixon mask. Yes, I found that distracting. Also the bad wig. As Joseph Gordon-Levitt said to Bruce Willis (in which the latter appropriately played an older version of the former’s character, without relying on CGI to down-age Willis), it’s time for these older actors to “do what old men do, and die.” I don’t mean literally, but yeah, this movie needed younger actors up-aged through makeup where necessary, not old actors who couldn’t act young to save their lives. And seriously, two of the most well-known Italian American actors of all time playing an Irishman and a Pennsylvania Dutch. Was that really necessary? Netflix is making like it won’t give this movie a wide-release as an effort to play hardball with theater chains. The truth is, it just wouldn’t do that well and would become an unmistakable box office bomb. How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI? Anyway, 6 out of 10 for me. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/47 "2019-12-09T18:03:51Z")
I watched this movie and thought, “Yep, that’s a Scorsese flick.” I enjoyed it, but it was the same old thing as all the other flicks he’s made. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/48 "2019-12-09T21:48:16Z")
It was nominated for some Golden Globes including best picture drama > **[Golden Globe 2020 nominations revealed | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/entertainment/golden-globes-2020-nominations/index.html)** > > The nominees for the 77th Golden Globe Awards were announced Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/49 "2019-12-09T22:32:53Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI? Yes, much of the very high cost was due to the extensive CGI. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/50 "2019-12-10T00:31:43Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > As Joseph Gordon-Levitt said to Bruce Willis (in which the latter appropriately played an older version of the former’s character, without relying on CGI to down-age Willis), it’s time for these older actors to “do what old men do, and die.” > > I don’t mean literally, but yeah, this movie needed younger actors up-aged through makeup where necessary, not old actors who couldn’t act young to save their lives. And seriously, two of the most well-known Italian American actors of all time playing an Irishman and a Pennsylvania Dutch. Was that really necessary? > > Netflix is making like it won’t give this movie a wide-release as an effort to play hardball with theater chains. The truth is, it just wouldn’t do that well and would become an unmistakable box office bomb. How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI? > > Anyway, 6 out of 10 for me. I think that whatever we saw was tailored for the medium. If it got a theatrical release it would have been a whole different animal. I have said before it is really a rushed mini series. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/51 "2019-12-10T03:41:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I have said before it is really a rushed mini series. [Martin Scorsese explains why The Irishman wouldn’t have worked as a TV series](https://ew.com/movies/2019/11/29/the-irishman-tv-series/) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/52 "2019-12-10T04:16:36Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > It was nominated for some Golden Globes including best picture drama > > [https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/entertainment/golden-globes-2020-nominations/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/entertainment/golden-globes-2020-nominations/index.html) What I don’t get, is why opinions here on the SDMB are so different from everywhere else. In the rest of the world, it seems that close to 100% of professional movie critics liked it, and the audience rating is about 85%. Here, it seems that 85% _disliked_ it. Why? Is it that people here are so much smarter and more perceptive than both movie critics and the general public? Is it that people here are so much dumber than both movie critics and the general public, and are unable to see the subtler aspects of the movie? Is it that people here are want to _appear_ much smarter and more perceptive than both movie critics and the general public, and they think they will achieve that by being extra cynical and negative? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/53 "2019-12-10T04:46:04Z")
I like what I like and dislike what I dislike. It never has to do with posturing and in this case it has nothing to do with smarts or lack of, or perceptiveness. It exclusively has to do with personal taste and grabs me emotionally and what leaves me cold. This left me cold. Maybe there is a selection bias here to people who respond in similar ways. Lots of people liked it. You did. Accusing those who don’t of lying about what they think though, in order to impress pixels like you? That is a bit much. Smilie does not change that. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/54 "2019-12-10T05:40:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yes, much of the very high cost was due to the extensive CGI. The worst part is, I can’t tell if you’re joking. I mean, I wish you were, but then I can’t tell anymore. My sarcometer is busted from overexposure. Did anyone else not realize who the titular Irishman was until, like the last half hour or so of the movie? Because the script didn’t seem to really highlight the main characters Irish heritage, even when Kennedy and the Irish were getting badmouthed by Hoffa, and I don’t remember him being specifically referred to as Irish until Joe Pesci’s character gave him the ring, and, again, De Niro is one of the two best known Italian American actors now living, and quite possibly in cinematic history. I actually found out Jimmy Hoffa was Pennsylvania Dutch (and not Irish) while checking wiki just to be sure that he wasn’t supposed to be “the Irishman” (going off the possibility that he was Protestant, and so badmouthing Kennedy et al for being Catholic, rather than for being Irish). The casting was just that bad. > [@DSeid](#): > > This left me cold. Me as well. It made me feel sad, thinking back to De Niro and Pacino in films like Casino and The Godfather respectively, and then seeing them in this. It’s not that they’ve grown old, it’s that they’ve grown old but for some reason Scorsese just could move past them and so had to cast them as men aged roughly on par with who they were in those earlier, better films. ---
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/55 "2019-12-10T05:51:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And they moved as if they were old men. Indeed. I quite literally laughed out loud during the scene where DeNiro beats up the grocer. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/56 "2019-12-10T14:19:46Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > What I don’t get, is why opinions here on the SDMB are so different from everywhere else. > > In the rest of the world, it seems that close to 100% of professional movie critics liked it, and the audience rating is about 85%. Here, it seems that 85% _disliked_ it. > > Why? > > … I think there is at least some element of “lifetime achievement” phenomenon, where late-career work receives undue praise, reflecting a prior body of work. This is a BIG film by a supposedly GREAT director, w/ multiple supposedly GREAT actors - therefore, the film MUST be GREAT! But I also suspect there is at least some degree of contrariness (is that a word) around these parts, by folk who like to consider themselves independent thinkers. And I agree, tho I was aware of the title, I never really thought of DeNiro as being Irish, other than when dialogue specifically mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/57 "2019-12-10T14:51:23Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > What I don’t get, is why opinions here on the SDMB are so different from everywhere else. > > In the rest of the world, it seems that close to 100% of professional movie critics liked it, and the audience rating is about 85%. Here, it seems that 85% _disliked_ it. > > Why? . . . It’s nothing nefarious **GreenWyvern** , some people just didn’t like it. It reminded me of the late Star Trek films in some ways. If this was made my Martin Jones, starring Al Smith and Robert Washington with the exact same performances, I don’t think it would have gotten the reviews that it did. It seemed like a C- film, but one we seen done better before. We loved the actors, loved the plot, and felt a fair amount of nostalgia, especially knowing we weren’t going to see our friends back together again. It gets a lot of benefits of the doubt due to that. But YMMV, - obviously does - and that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/58 "2019-12-10T22:18:43Z")
DeNiro beating up the grocer took me out of it. He just moved like a brittle old man. I loved these actors in much of what they have done, and as such this movie is excellent in that it is a good argument for why these guys should hang it up, at least hang up playing tough guys. (None of this applies to Joe Pesci, who was consistently excellent). This movie with actors younger than 76-79 could have been really good - it is still a Scorsese movie, with many of his special touches. But even then, that’s not a sure thing - the characters were not written in way that made you care about them, unlike, say, The Godfather movies, or Goodfellas. Perhaps because these were real, historical people. But then Tarantino showed that you can make a perfectly engrossing movie featuring “real” people. And yes, Tarantino wrote alternate history. But then so did this movie. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/59 "2019-12-11T00:24:02Z")
The grocer scene and the one at the waterside should have been more artistically shot. As Chaplin said: Close up for tragedy and long shot for comedy. You can make anything you want happen on screen. You don’t have to film your 75 year old leading man in long shots in an action scene. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750/60 "2019-12-11T05:47:39Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > The grocer scene and the one at the waterside should have been more artistically shot. As Chaplin said: Close up for tragedy and long shot for comedy. The distancing from the violence was DELIBERATE. It was done for a reason. Do you really think Scorsese doesn’t know how to film violence for maximum emotional effect… and for MINIMUM emotional effect? Have you not considered WHY he made that choice? _I told them once, I told them twice, They would not listen to advice._  🙂 This is NOT a standard gangster movie. This is deliberately NOT another Goodfellas, or Casino, or Godfather, or whatever. This is a movie _satirizing_ and _commenting on_ and _undercutting_ the standard tropes of a gangster movie. You’re comparing apples with oranges. > [@DSeid](#): > > While the Hoffa murder set up bit made little sense to me I did find Frank’s refusal to sit in the front knowing who would be behind him and what we know from a past scene as a bit funny. A bit funny? It was hilarious… and DELIBERATELY so. Like a lot of other funny bits in the movie. Scorsese is taking standard gangster movie tropes and making fun of them, riffing on them, looking at them from the outside, showing the inherent ridiculousness of them. But for all the humor, it’s a very serious and very moral movie. Instead of romanticizing gangsters like so many movies, it’s doing the exact opposite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irishman-spoilers-spoilers-spoilers/843750.md?page=4)