# The IRS is apparently just a criminal organization **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994 "2015-11-08T04:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/1 "2015-11-08T04:52:54Z")
[http://www.wthr.com/story/30389540/secret-irs-policy-hides-identity-theft-from-victims-illegal-immigration](http://www.wthr.com/story/30389540/secret-irs-policy-hides-identity-theft-from-victims-illegal-immigration) > [@](#): > > Risking their jobs to come forward, the whistleblowers do not want to show their identity. But they do want to show how the IRS is a knowing accomplice to millions of cases of identity theft while keeping victims in the dark. > > A five-month Eyewitness News investigation shows their concerns are well-documented, and the IRS has been warned about the problem for years. Within a massive federal agency that claims to be taking identity theft seriously, the reality – in many cases – is very different. > > “We are not supposed to do anything.” said a whistleblower. “We are not allowed to say anything.” > > Findings of the 13 Investigates report include: > > ``` > The IRS accepts millions of tax returns – and issues tax refunds – even when taxpayer documents show clear warning signs of identity theft > Confidential IRS policies instruct IRS employees not to tell taxpayers when someone else uses their social security number to earn income > The IRS allows illegal immigrants to "borrow" social security numbers that do not legally belong to them > The IRS is discontinuing a program to notify taxpayers when their social security number is used by someone else to gain employment > > ``` The story then goes on to interview people who were harassed by the IRS for underreporting income who were actually victims of the identity thieves the IRS won’t go after. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/2 "2015-11-08T05:08:25Z")
Confused. When two of my friends got hit with identity theft, they were notified it happened by the Treasury Department calling them. I can certainly imagine the IRS wanting them to pay taxes on the stolen funds they lost though. Bastards. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/3 "2015-11-08T05:17:03Z")
Looks like one of Indiana’s Senators already raised the question with the head of the IRS: [http://www.wthr.com/story/30441077/senator-outraged-by-irs-investigation-pledges-action](http://www.wthr.com/story/30441077/senator-outraged-by-irs-investigation-pledges-action) > [@](#): > > “Well, shouldn’t it be in the government’s interest also to care for the victims [of identity theft] and put something in place that will give the victim official notification that their Social Security number has been stolen?” asked Coats. “Because it has an impact on the individuals who’ve been the victims.” > > Koskinen told senators his agency would be willing to explore solutions. > > “We’d be delighted to talk with you further about it and figure out how we can deal with both aspects of it,” he said. > > “I think that’s good. He said he will meet with me and he will meet with our committee,” Coats told WTHR after the hearing in Washington. “We need more answers.” > > The senator is optimistic the Finance Committee and IRS can help develop a plan to prevent employment-related identity theft and to protect those who’ve already become victims. But then again, Eyewitness News revealed the IRS has known about the problem for more than a decade and has done nothing about it – despite repeated warnings by the U.S Treasury Department’s Inspector General for Tax Administration. > > “Do you see anything changing this time?” WTHR asked Coats. > > “We need to make it change,” he replied. “Either they agree to change this policy and protect us as individual citizens or we will force that issue through committee. I think they like to hide and say ‘That’s not our responsibility. That’s not what we do.’ It’s time the IRS own up to their responsibility.” > > A meeting between the IRS and key members of the Finance Committee is expected to take place in the next few weeks. Senate advisors have already had several meetings and discussions with the Inspector General’s office to discuss the findings of WTHR’s investigation, and possible legislation is also being discussed behind the scenes. > > “We’re going to force changes, one way or another,” Coats said. “We need to get to the bottom of this … because what’s happening right now is simply unfair to people who are working hard and paying their taxes and being good citizens, then being abused by the IRS withholding notification that the IRS has discovered their Social Security number has been stolen. It needs to be fixed.” So thanks to some good reporting, changes in law might be forthcoming soon. Although as we know, laws aren’t really useful unless they are enforced, and authorities seem to have developed quite a bit of antipathy to enforcing laws that might negatively impact fakedocumented immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/4 "2015-11-08T14:41:23Z")
Is \*that \*what they’re going to use as a pretext for impeaching Koskinen? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/5 "2015-11-08T16:04:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is \*that \*what they’re going to use as a pretext for impeaching Koskinen? I’m not sure that anyone in here has mentioned impeachment. Are you suggesting that the whole thing is no big deal? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/6 "2015-11-08T16:18:56Z")
Google “Koskinen impeach” and read the results. Take a lunch, you’ll be there a while. Starting with _Washington Post_: **the Republican campaign to impeach the IRS commissioner: What comes next?** ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/7 "2015-11-08T16:35:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Google “Koskinen impeach” and read the results. Take a lunch, you’ll be there a while. > > Starting with _Washington Post_: **the Republican campaign to impeach the IRS commissioner: What comes next?** I’ve seen the stories. I think that many of those investigating Koskinen are idiots, and their efforts are clearly motivated by partisan politics. That does not mean, however, that the IRS should not be fixing this issue. We have a situation where the people who work there see mismatches that indicate the possible or probable theft of social security numbers, and they refuse to do anything about it because as long as the income was earned under the social security number used on the form, they don’t consider it an IRS problem. That, my friend, is some fucking bullshit right there. I support the principle of taxation. I think it’s a fair price for living in a civilized society. Despite all the whining from Americans about the IRS, i think it’s a necessary and important department of the government. But if we’re going to have a system in which the government takes a portion of our income and uses it for public purposes, we have the right to ask, at the very least, that they take some basic steps to protect the very citizens that the institution is supposed to be serving. As these employees in the article make clear, if they see that John in Dubuque is earning income under SSN 123-45-6789, and that Pete in Chicago is also earning income under SSN 123-45-6789, but Pete is filing his taxes under ITIN 98-67-5432, it is pretty clear to them that Pete might be using a stolen SSN. And yet they are explicitly told to simply pay Pete’s tax return and not take any further steps to discover if there might be fraud going on. Now, if it ended here, we could shrug our shoulders and say, “Hey, who cares what number Pete in Chicago is using? As long as he’s paying his taxes, it really doesn’t matter.” The problem is that when that income hits the system under John’s SSN, the next step is for the IRS to send John a letter accusing him of under-reporting his income. They say to him, “Hey, John, we see that you failed to report the income you earned from your job in Chicago. Pay up, or you face interest charges and possible criminal penalties.” All of this despite the fact that John lives in Dubuque, has a full-time job in Dubuque, and did not travel to Chicago once this year. And they send him this letter despite knowing that someone else has already paid income tax on that income under the same SSN, but a different ITIN. And now John is left in a situation where he has to spend months, involving police reports and affidavits and sometimes (according to the story) loss of things like health insurance, before maybe getting the problem fixed. All of this because the agency charged with collecting our taxes can’t be bothered to do the most basic due diligence on the information it receives from the very people whose taxes it is collecting. And it’s not like this has just fallen through the cracks, and is only now being noticed. The IRS itself has admitted that its active policy is not to pursue these cases, because using someone else’s SSN to get a job does not fall under their definition of tax fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/8 "2015-11-08T16:38:18Z")
I love how the actual issue has nothing to do with the title of the thread, and how the title of the thread completely undermines the very real problem here. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/9 "2015-11-08T16:40:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I love how the actual issue has nothing to do with the title of the thread, and how the title of the thread completely undermines the very real problem here. Yeah, it’s a dumb thread title, and it takes an important issue and uses it for little more than dishonest political point-scoring. But look at who the OP is. Is anyone surprised? Our friend **adaher** is like the proverbial blind squirrel who occasionally finds an acorn. Except he’s also a dumb squirrel who, when he does manage to find one, throws it over a cliff and then blames liberals for stealing his acorn. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/10 "2015-11-08T17:53:29Z")
Dude, you just ruined _Ice Age_. Or made the Elections forum a lot funnier, I’m not sure which. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/11 "2015-11-09T00:16:23Z")
Clearly the answer is to cut even more IRS funding so that it has the resources to help taxpayers even more. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/12 "2015-11-09T00:28:20Z")
[Just how long is the US Tax Code?](http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html) > [@](#): > > According to the US Government Printing Office, it’s 13,458 pages in total[, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included]. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress–available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845. Sure, the IRS needs more rules and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/13 "2015-11-09T02:03:45Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Just how long is the US Tax Code?](http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > According to the US Government Printing Office, it’s 13,458 pages in total[, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included]. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress–available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845. > > Sure, the IRS needs more rules and regulations. Seems that they could put that online pretty easily. Since every income-earning American is expected to comply with it, why don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/14 "2015-11-09T02:40:02Z")
[It is.](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/15 "2015-11-09T03:33:33Z")
If you love your Uncle Sam, you’ll just have to put up with your Aunt Iris. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/16 "2015-11-09T06:23:38Z")
The funny thing is that my every brush with the IRS has reflected far more competence than my encounters with state tax agencies. Also, [the IRS is beefing up its identity theft identification program](http://www.bankrate.com/financing/taxes/irs-will-share-tax-filing-info-to-fight-identity-theft/). Thirdly, I point to a thread from earlier this year, sponsored by one of our finest posters, YT: [Ethics: Should Turbo tax make millions by processing returns by fraudsters?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=751233) This is a case where conservatives scream and tear their garments over a speck provided by the Feds, while ignoring the plank in their gut delivered by the private sector. Markets can do no wrong! I applaud all whistleblowers who aid in the fight against crime. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/17 "2015-11-09T16:19:39Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The funny thing is that my every brush with the IRS has reflected far more competence than my encounters with state tax agencies. Yeah, i’ve made similar observations on this board in the past. My every direct communication with the people at the IRS has involved friendly and polite and professional service. Admittedly, such communications were sometimes necessary because the IRS had fucked something up in the first place, but in such a large organization there are always going to be mistakes, and i was impressed at the way they went about fixing the problems. As i said above, i think the IRS is a necessary and important part of our national government. I still think, though, that they should fix this particular problem, especially since it seems like it would be relatively easy to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/18 "2015-11-09T16:39:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, i’ve made similar observations on this board in the past. My every direct communication with the people at the IRS has involved friendly and polite and professional service. Admittedly, such communications were sometimes necessary because the IRS had fucked something up in the first place, but in such a large organization there are always going to be mistakes, and i was impressed at the way they went about fixing the problems. Same here. My one major interaction with the IRS was back in my early twenties- I’d inherited a bond, and cashed it without realizing I needed to pay taxes on it. The next year I got a letter from them, telling me I owed them a hundred bucks or so. Well, I didn’t have the money, so I ignored it for a few weeks. Then, a week or two later, I got another letter from them- further investigation showed that I only owed them about fifty bucks because I’d actually overpaid on a previous return. Then a month later, I got another letter from the IRS- I’d overpaid on yet another previous year, so now they owed me about ninety bucks, and they included a check for that amount. Clearly a very criminal organization. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/19 "2015-11-09T21:42:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That does not mean, however, that the IRS should not be fixing this issue. We have a situation where the people who work there see mismatches that indicate the possible or probable theft of social security numbers, and they refuse to do anything about it because as long as the income was earned under the social security number used on the form, they don’t consider it an IRS problem. > > T > As these employees in the article make clear, if they see that John in Dubuque is earning income under SSN 123-45-6789, and that Pete in Chicago is also earning income under SSN 123-45-6789, but Pete is filing his taxes under ITIN 98-67-5432, it is pretty clear to them that Pete might be using a stolen SSN. And yet they are explicitly told to simply pay Pete’s tax return and not take any further steps to discover if there might be fraud going on. > > Now, if it ended here, we could shrug our shoulders and say, “Hey, who cares what number Pete in Chicago is using? As long as he’s paying his taxes, it really doesn’t matter.” > > The problem is that when that income hits the system under John’s SSN, the next step is for the IRS to send John a letter accusing him of under-reporting his income. They say to him, “Hey, John, we see that you failed to report the income you earned from your job in Chicago. Pay up, or you face interest charges and possible criminal penalties.” All of this despite the fact that John lives in Dubuque, has a full-time job in Dubuque, and did not travel to Chicago once this year. > > And they send him this letter despite knowing that someone else has already paid income tax on that income under the same SSN, but a different ITIN. And now John is left in a situation where he has to spend months, involving police reports and affidavits and sometimes (according to the story) loss of things like health insurance, before maybe getting the problem fixed. All of this because the agency charged with collecting our taxes can’t be bothered to do the most basic due diligence on the information it receives from the very people whose taxes it is collecting. > > And it’s not like this has just fallen through the cracks, and is only now being noticed. The IRS itself has admitted that its active policy is not to pursue these cases, because using someone else’s SSN to get a job does not fall under their definition of tax fraud. First, it’s not really a problem, since what you think happens doesnt occur very often. if the person with the fake SSN has income, they usually file, and the system show that. The computer/system doesnt try to get both individuals to pay taxes on the same income. Not to mention such income usually comes with withholding, which means the taxes are paid. It’s not “Identity Theft”. However the IRS could solve the “problem” if Congress authorized them to do so and gave them to budget to do so. but Congress has hobbled the IRS with extreme and crazy Privacy and “Taxpayer Rights” law, not to mention cutting the budge to the bone, since the IRS mostly audits Rich dudes. But there is a side effect- mostly, Illegals do file and pay Income taxes. Once the IRS started to do that- they’d stop, which would mean the loss of billions of dollars. The whole article is just another Right Wing-nut attack on undocumented aliens. It’s bogus and full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/20 "2015-11-09T21:51:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > First, it’s not really a problem, since what you think happens doesnt occur very often. if the person with the fake SSN has income, they usually file, and the system show that. The computer/system doesnt try to get both individuals to pay taxes on the same income. So are you alleging that the cases described in the article are made-up, or non-existent? It might not happen often, and if it doesn’t then that is reassuring. But it should not happen at all, and yet, if the people interviewed for the article are to be believed, it does happen. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994.md?page=2)