# The IRS is apparently just a criminal organization **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994 "2015-11-08T04:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/21 "2015-11-09T21:52:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So are you alleging that the cases described in the article are made-up, or non-existent? > > It might not happen often, and if it doesn’t then that is reassuring. But it should not happen at all, and yet, if the people interviewed for the article are to be believed, it does happen. _“doesnt occur very often”_ Also note that the IRS is barred by Law from telling their side of the story. Perhaps those two cases are made up or vastly exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/22 "2015-11-09T22:06:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I still think, though, that they should fix this particular problem, especially since it seems like it would be relatively easy to deal with. I think the difficult problems (at the IRS) should be addressed as well. No snark intended actually. > [@mhendo](#): > > So are you alleging that the cases described in the article are made-up, or non-existent? I admit that in the back of my mind, I’m thinking about the massive amount of social security taxes paid by illegal immigrants, for which they will receive nothing in return. Such payments are reflected in projections of social security’s solvency. The OP’s issue might be a little tricky to fix. Or not: I honestly don’t know. We want those with fake SS numbers to keep paying into the system. But we also don’t want others inconvenienced or screwed over. I’ll opine that the matter deserves greater investigation by a media outlet more serious than KTHR. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/23 "2015-11-10T14:57:32Z")
For me, the tricky part is you’ve got illegal immigrants honestly paying taxes. They should not be punished for that. However, the victim of identify theft should at least be informed so they can watch their credit. If the SS# is only being “borrowed” as they say, for employment, then no real harm done, but once someone is using it for that, it can easily be used for other things, and that has been an issue, as the article shows. But if a company is sending W-2s and the illegal workers aren’t paying taxes, bring the hammer down. And don’t just drop the issue when you find out that the owner of the SS# didn’t actually work those hours. You’ve got unpaid taxes there, go after the fraudulent worker, take their assets, send them home. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/24 "2015-11-10T15:21:19Z")
For all the stupid assed posturing by certain Republicans about abolishing the IRS… The reality of the situation is that, should we abolish it, we would be rather immediately required to recreate the entire organization. Because someone needs to collect our taxes. Of course, some jackass Republican will immediately jump in and declare that we need to privatize it. Because allowing some private company access to all that information, all that money and all that responsibility - with a guaranteed profit - will in no way result in any corruption, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/25 "2015-11-10T15:23:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That does not mean, however, that the IRS should not be fixing this issue. We have a situation where the people who work there see mismatches that indicate the possible or probable theft of social security numbers, and they refuse to do anything about it because as long as the income was earned under the social security number used on the form, they don’t consider it an IRS problem. It’s not really the IRS’ job to fix the issue. Report on it to Congress, yes. But it’s Congress’ job to enact legislation directing the IRS to fix it. If they implemented a new rule to prohibit this sort of activity House Republicans would be demanding that Koskinen stop trying to usurp the role of the legislature. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/26 "2015-11-10T15:25:25Z")
Well, that will be done in a pretty big hurry since the Senate is now informed and riled up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/27 "2015-11-10T15:29:15Z")
_This_ Congress? Pass legislation? In a hurry? Did I wake up in 2024 or something? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/28 "2015-11-10T15:32:13Z")
They do just fine when there’s nothing to disagree on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/29 "2015-11-10T15:35:04Z")
There’s always something to disagree on. Whatever they wind up doing will affect employers (who have to report employee earnings), tax service providers, credit agencies, employees and all sorts of discrete groups. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/30 "2015-11-10T15:37:49Z")
No, actually, you just have to tell IRS employees to inform victims of identify theft and aggressively pursue stealers of SS#'s if they are not paying their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/31 "2015-11-10T15:43:07Z")
And the people who hired them? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/32 "2015-11-10T15:44:34Z")
If they used fake documents, no. If they had no documents, then yes, but we already have a program for that,workplace raids, which have been curtailed because they worked too well. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/33 "2015-11-10T15:51:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the people who hired them? That’s a refreshing alternative to “and the horses they rode in on”. I just may borrow it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/34 "2015-11-10T16:06:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not really the IRS’ job to fix the issue. Report on it to Congress, yes. But it’s Congress’ job to enact legislation directing the IRS to fix it. If they implemented a new rule to prohibit this sort of activity House Republicans would be demanding that Koskinen stop trying to usurp the role of the legislature. I understand what you’re saying here, and i agree that Congress needs to take action, but surely it should not require a specific act of Congress for the IRS to at least look into the situation when it becomes clear that two different people are paying taxes under a single SSN. As i suggested in an earlier post, if the IRS simply accepted the taxes from both people and left it at that, i wouldn’t be too worried. I understand that it’s a tax collection agency, and not a _de facto_ immigration agency. Where i have a problem is in the cases (possibly rare) where the IRS also starts sending threatening notices to one party, requiring him to declare income and pay taxes on money earned by the person using a stolen SSN. Yes, in the linked story those cases were eventually resolved, but sometimes not before months of paperwork and lost money and benefits. And this shouldn’t be hard, because this situation doesn’t require the IRS to DO SOMETHING; it simply requires them to NOT DO SOMETHING. That is, all they have to do is look at the situation, use their judgment about what is going on, and NOT send a penalty notice to the poor schlub whose SSN is being used by someone else. I’m not asking the IRS to turn itself into a branch of Homeland Security. I’m not on an anti-immigrant rant here; i support amnesty and a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. I’d also be happy if there were a better way for undocumented workers to pay their taxes without nicking a SSN. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/35 "2015-11-10T17:23:48Z")
But that’s part of the problem. The IRS was making a collective decision to be as easy as possible on illegal workers, but to kick ass and take names when it comes to suspected unreported income by legal workers. This goes to the IRS’s partisanship and general unfairness. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/36 "2015-11-10T17:26:56Z")
Oh, and furthermore the IRS should be required to demonstrate proof. If a guy is supposedly working in an office in Florida and a factory in Indiana and he heatedely denies that’s the Indiana job is his, that should be the end of harassing him. He shouldn’t have to provide any evidence whatsoever, his claim is 99% probable on its face! It’s a clear case of a stolen SS# and so the IRS should be going after the illegal worker for unpaid taxes, and inform the INS that we’ve got an illegal worker cheating on taxes. All it would take is a phone call to the employer: “What’s the name of your employee with SS# XXX-XX-XXXX?” Oh, hey, the names don’t match! But instead they make these legitimate taxpayers prove somehow that they aren’t working a second job across the country, and then just apparently decide it’s not important anymore. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/37 "2015-11-10T18:02:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But that’s part of the problem. The IRS was making a collective decision to be as easy as possible on illegal workers, but to kick ass and take names when it comes to suspected unreported income by legal workers. > > This goes to the IRS’s partisanship and general unfairness. The IRS’s mandate under the law is to collect tax revenue. Nowhere in the IRS mandate are they asked to enforce immigration laws. Thus, any policy the IRS took that discouraged illegal immigrants from filing would be counter to its legal mandate. If there’s partisanship and unfairness, you need to look higher up the food chain. Or perhaps you believe the IRS doesn’t have enough authority? Maybe you’d like them unilaterally put in charge of enforcing all kinds of laws. It sounds like your main gripe is that they have such a narrow focus of authority and I’m sure this could all be fixed by making them bigger and more powerful, no? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/38 "2015-11-10T18:16:17Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > The IRS’s mandate under the law is to collect tax revenue. Nowhere in the IRS mandate are they asked to enforce immigration laws. Thus, any policy the IRS took that discouraged illegal immigrants from filing would be counter to its legal mandate. I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m disagreeing with aggressively pursuing people for unreported income when they are victims, even though their explanations are not only plausible, but facially probable. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps you believe the IRS doesn’t have enough authority? Maybe you’d like them unilaterally put in charge of enforcing all kinds of laws. It sounds like your main gripe is that they have such a narrow focus of authority and I’m sure this could all be fixed by making them bigger and more powerful, no? No, just share data and inform victims and go after tax cheats and deport them if they are here illegally. If illegals file and pay, fine, no need to do anything other than inform the person who is the rightful owner of the SS# and that citizen can take it from there, keep an eye on his credit and such and report to the FBI if there’s any unusual activity. But if illegals use fraudulent SS#s and also don’t pay, that should be a top priority for IRS enforcement, at least as important as harassing honest people who work in one state but are accused of somehow commuting across the country as well. BTW, I need some ignorance fought here: If I report to the IRS that I made $17 million last year from selling cocaine, they do nothing because drug enforcement isn’t under their purview, right? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/39 "2015-11-10T18:18:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m disagreeing with aggressively pursuing people for unreported income when they are victims, even though their explanations are not only plausible, but facially probable. But you said the IRS was > [@](#): > > making a collective decision to be as easy as possible on illegal workers > [@](#): > > No, just share data and inform victims and go after tax cheats and deport them if they are here illegally. Sharing personal data about taxes is not something the IRS can just go doing without Congressional authorization, and for good reason. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994/40 "2015-11-10T18:21:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, I need some ignorance fought here: If I report to the IRS that I made $17 million last year from selling cocaine, they do nothing because drug enforcement isn’t under their purview, right? Yeah, that’s right. In fact, it’s how they nailed Capone - income tax evasion. There’s lots of interesting case law right now regarding marijuana sales. While legal at a state level in some places, it’s still illegal at the federal level, which means you’re required to report your income, but are not allowed to claim most expenses, since expenses for illegal income are not deductible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-irs-is-apparently-just-a-criminal-organization/736994.md?page=3)