# The "I've seen INCEPTION" thread (spoilers inevitable) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 16, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913 "2010-07-16T13:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/201 "2010-07-26T19:10:56Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Wow, it really [kicked ass](http://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2865&p=.htm) this past weekend at the B.O. > > > [@](#): > > > > While _Salt_ had a solid start, the weekend box office was again headlined by _Inception_, this time with how well it held up. Christopher Nolan’s dream caper drew an estimated $42.9 million, easing a mere 32 percent from last weekend. That marked the smallest second-weekend percentage drop of the summer for any major release and the second smallest for the year behind the much lower-grossing _Tooth Fairy_. > > > > To find a comparable genre title to _Inception_ that held better without the aid of a holiday, one has to go back to the first _Matrix_ in 1999. _Inception_ also had Mr. Nolan’s scantest decline for a nationwide release, losing less steam than _The Prestige_ (35 percent drop). With $143 million in ten days, _Inception_ has generated more business than _Batman Begins_ through the same point, and it has mopped the floor with similar summer science fiction titles like _I, Robot_ and _Minority Report_. > > I suspect the availability of the film on IMAX helped, but I still don’t think anyone would have predicted it would’ve beat the Jolie film. I think _Inception_ has a high percentage of repeat viewers too. It’s definitely one of those movies where you don’t really feel like you saw everything after the first viewing. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/202 "2010-07-26T19:12:31Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > 1. the totem: If #1 is true, why does it fall the other times. Because it wasn’t his totem! It was Moll’s (in his subconscious) at least until the end. Then again, it may fall like some have noted (because it’s not his totem) but the cut is Nolan telling us it is a dream as if it spun forever. ``` Doesn't Cobb make a point of telling Ariadne that one's totem has to be kept to oneself? The fact that his totem was not in fact his own is perhaps an indication that he is always in a dream. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/203 "2010-07-26T19:34:11Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > We never see the top fall, and we never will. Cobb decided to make his own choice about what was real, and not let the top decide for him. This was my interpretation, too. it doesn’t matter whether the end is real or a dream. The whole movie is a quest for Cobb to get back to his children. He can’t do it by reliving the previous moment where he turned away and his children ran off, and changing the outcome. he says as much to Ariadne. So, he had to find another back. He reaches his goal, and doesn’t care whether it is reality or not. The only potential hole I saw, though, was the relationship between Saito and Fischer. If you were both incredibly powerful men, at the head of companies in direct opposition to each other, wouldn’t you know what your competitor looks like? Why didn’t Fischer recognize Saito on the plane? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/204 "2010-07-26T19:40:55Z")
Saw Inception this weekend. Great movie. Just short of amazing, but very great. The music was actually a little distracting in some scenes. Do we need lofty epic music even during a relatively minor conversation? I’d like Cobb to have been back to his kids in the real world, but when he sees his kids they look exactly like what he has been remembering the whole movie, except this time they turn around so he can see their faces. So I think that’s a dream too unfortunately. Somebody in the audience said it was a setup for “Inception 2.” 😉 It bugged me during the movie that the dreams weren’t really that weird or dreamy (not like my dreams.) But I guess if you had people flying and monsters and things like that, the audience would immediately know what was a dream and what wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/205 "2010-07-26T19:41:32Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Yes, US Immigration stamps passports. I returned from Heathrow on July 10 and have a stamp from when I went through US Immigration. Looking at my passport, I also have a US stamp from June of 2004, so they’ve been doing it longer than five years. I came back from Heathrow in late May and didn’t get a stamp ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/206 "2010-07-26T20:20:57Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > It bugged me during the movie that the dreams weren’t really that weird or dreamy (not like my dreams.) But I guess if you had people flying and monsters and things like that, the audience would immediately know what was a dream and what wasn’t. A few people have had this complaint, and I don’t understand it. The dreams are created by the architect so that the subject does not know he is dreaming. They explicitly state this in the film. When things happen that break the normal laws of reality, the dreamer’s subconscious notices and begins to attack. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/207 "2010-07-26T20:35:40Z")
Yeah these are not real dreams we are talking about. They are artificial dreams designed to achieve a specific purpose so there is no point comparing them to a real dream. ``` BTW I would highly recommend the [review](http://chud.com/articles/articles/24477/1/NEVER-WAKE-UP-THE-MEANING-AND-SECRET-OF-INCEPTION/Page1.html) **Tanbarkie** put up earlier. Not only do I agree with the reviewer's overall interpretation, I agree that the movie retains its emotional meaning even if you believe it's all a dream. I also like his metaphor comparing the inception team in the film with a film production unit. ``` ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/208 "2010-07-26T21:27:25Z")
That’s a nifty review and viewpoint, **Lantern** , but why would Cobb dream the actions between people where Cobb is not physically present? I have never had a dream where I am not present in some way… am I unusual in this? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/209 "2010-07-26T22:31:05Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > That’s a nifty review and viewpoint, **Lantern** , but why would Cobb dream the actions between people where Cobb is not physically present? > > I have never had a dream where I am not present in some way… am I unusual in this? As astute and interesting as that theory is, your point is the most convincing (and most obvious) reason why it doesn’t hold much water. For Nolan to employ this would be a far greater cheat than some of the other bait-n-switches possible. > [@Dio](#): > > I think Inception has a high percentage of repeat viewers too. It’s definitely one of those movies where you don’t really feel like you saw everything after the first viewing. Oh, I agree and I think everyone expected some inevitable repeat business–but the sheer volume of people who are likely rescreening the film to push the number where it is is very impressive (especially since the film is almost an hour longer than _Salt_, so has fewer showtimes per screen across the country). It’s currently ranked #3 on IMDB’s top 250, which means the opening word-of-mouth is very enthusiastic, too. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/210 "2010-07-26T22:50:12Z")
[quote=“Necros, post:203, topic:546913”] > [@garygnu](#): > > The only potential hole I saw, though, was the relationship between Saito and Fischer. If you were both incredibly powerful men, at the head of companies in direct opposition to each other, wouldn’t you know what your competitor looks like? Why didn’t Fischer recognize Saito on the plane? And if he did? So what? Why would he suspect a billionaire head of a megacorporation of personally perpretrating some sort of crime against him? Remember, Fischer will never have any clue any crime was committed. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/211 "2010-07-26T23:13:17Z")
No, but I would have at least expected them to acknowledge each other. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/212 "2010-07-27T00:35:24Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > That’s a nifty review and viewpoint, **Lantern** , but why would Cobb dream the actions between people where Cobb is not physically present? > > I have never had a dream where I am not present in some way… am I unusual in this? I’ve definitely had dreams when I’m a passive (if not completely incorporeal) observer to what’s going on. And Nolan establishes several times that the projections can be independent entities - particularly if they are projections of someone the dreamer knows, like the projection of Browning in Level 2 (the Hotel). Arthur and Ariadne see Browning wandering around the hotel lobby while Cobb is chatting up Fischer at the bar. If we accept the “Cobb = a movie director” thesis of Faraci’s article, then it makes sense that he would instinctively imbue his projections with more dimension than your average dreamer. First, as an extractor, Cobb has far better direct control over his dreamscape than the average dreamer. And second, as a director/ storyteller, Cobb is the kind of creative mind who wants his creations to live and breathe as believable characters with independent thoughts, histories, and motivations. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/213 "2010-07-27T02:42:39Z")
Loved it. The best movie I’ve seen in a long time. Not as original as some claim–the plot is very similar to Philip K. Dick’s _Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch_ and _Ubik_–but that’s not to take away from Nolan’s brilliance in screenwriting and directing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/214 "2010-07-27T05:00:41Z")
> [@Necros](#): > > No, but I would have at least expected them to acknowledge each other. Maybe they met in the VIP lounge before the flight. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/215 "2010-07-27T06:42:56Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > That’s a nifty review and viewpoint, **Lantern** , but why would Cobb dream the actions between people where Cobb is not physically present? > > I have never had a dream where I am not present in some way… am I unusual in this? It doesn’t have to be Cobb’s dream alone. It could be some kind of shared dream. After all in the dream sequences we are often shown action where not all the participants are present. And as **Tanbarkie** says these are designed dreams which don’t necessarily follow all the rules of real dreams. One possible clue to the movie’s meaning are the symbols of infinite regress like the mirrors and the Penrose stairs. Perhaps in the movie universe there is no real state, just an infinite regress of dream states. However the point of the last scene is that the characters can choose to find emotional meaning and happiness in one of the states even if it isn’t “real”. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/216 "2010-07-27T18:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] As astute and interesting as that theory is, your point is the most convincing (and most obvious) reason why it doesn’t hold much water. For Nolan to employ this would be a far greater cheat than some of the other bait-n-switches possible. [/QUOTE] I apologize for being dense, but I’m not following you. If I had a dream where I saw myself in third person, or one in which I am not present (even if in some invisible form), it would so unusual that it would trigger my natural defenses, as shown by the projections seeking out “intruder” thoughts. Granted, everyone was super tranq’ed, but still. In all my dreams, the point of view is as if I was present, looking out through my eyes. I never see myself as a whole person, but I do visualise my arms or legs peripherally, as needed. Never my face, or glasses. How does my experiences with dreaming prove that Cobb was dreaming? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/217 "2010-07-27T18:39:26Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > > [@mlees](#): > > > > That’s a nifty review and viewpoint, **Lantern** , but why would Cobb dream the actions between people where Cobb is not physically present? > > > > I have never had a dream where I am not present in some way… am I unusual in this? > > It doesn’t have to be Cobb’s dream alone. It could be some kind of shared dream. After all in the dream sequences we are often shown action where not all the participants are present. > > And as **Tanbarkie** says these are designed dreams which don’t necessarily follow all the rules of real dreams. So Fisher and Cobb did not see Arthur scam a kiss from Adriane, because that was in their heads only, right? Makes sense. But I don’t understand how that proves that Cobb was dreaming the entire movie/heist… ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/218 "2010-07-27T20:00:33Z")
Well there is no proof that it’s all a dream. That’s an interpretation based on some of the odd things that happen in the “real world” sequences which are discussed in the review and earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/219 "2010-07-27T22:45:02Z")
Like _The Matrix_, but with twice the brains and a tenth of the fun. Too long, too wordy, and too stiff. I appreciate the effort to be cerebral, but does that have to come at the expense of any levity at all? Some parts of the movie were stunning – the hall fight, of course, and the climactic countdown – but others seemed too restrained. Cobb’s crumbling limbo was a VERY boring place for two supposedly creative people to have spent decades building it, for example. The acting was competent. Murphy and Hardy were probably the best of the lot. Gordon-Levitt’s character was far too restrained for a thief of any kind. Page was Page. DiCaprio was decent in an accent-free reprise of his role in _Shutter Island_. His creepy wife was good, I guess. Obviously, I was disappointed, though I really hoped not to be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913/220 "2010-07-28T04:01:40Z")
> [@Green\_Rosetta](#): > > And boy, is Joseph Gordon Levitt handsome! He looks so much like Heath Ledger. That’s what really creeped me out. I kept thinking “But Ledger is _dead_, how can it be him? Did they film this that long ago? But it doesn’t QUITE look like him, it’s just subtly wrong…” I came out thinking the whole thing was a dream. I realized that Mal killed herself the second time Cobb’s foot crushed the champagne glass. (I don’t think that all those little things are totems, incidentally – just like little things will remind me of people long dead, this song or that smell or the stretch of road over there, so do they remind Cobb of his wife. They’re signs that she’s surfacing… or, more likely, they’re what causes her to appear.) As she’s describing this, she’s crazed but she’s perfectly sensible. All the characters seem to be facets of Cobb’s character more than real people. Take Ariadne: that gorgeous girl has never had a lover? I think she even admits it, even if it’s just with a little shake of the head, when Mal asks her that. Does she ever talk about her own past? Does she have brothers, sisters, anything? You can argue they’d be unimportant to the movie, but she seems like a cipher: she’s innocence and brilliance and the moral center, everything good about a person. Arthur is rationality, precision, Cobb’s methodical nature. Saito is Cobb’s pragmatism and his analytical nature. They’re all parts of his subconscious. All the attacks, though, are coming from outside, which would either mean he’s not in his own dream or connects to the question of why he’s so many people. What would cause that? A fragmented psyche. Why is his psyche fragmented? Because he’s been in limbo for so long. I think _he’s_ the one who can’t get out of limbo. And why is limbo so hard to get out of when you can just kill yourself to leave? Because you can do and make anything in there. It’s like the ultimate holodeck. They created this huge amazing city in there – can you imagine wanting to leave a place where you could be with your beloved and your children forever young in a perfect world? Forget anything and anyplace else. That would be heaven. And Cobb’s the one who’s trying to bring back the perfect world. He traps his wife in there with him. He desperately tries to get back and pick up the pieces. He uses _positive_ emotion, not negative, to convince Fischer to break up the company. Sure, this is explained as being stronger – a point I quite agree with – but he’s continually trying to make things better. I do love the idea that this is a metaphor for filmmaking. Inception is pretty much what a filmmaker does. I remember bawling my eyes out during Up and still thinking “That bastard director! He knows just what buttons to push! I don’t know if that’s cynical or vitally important and wonderful. :mad:” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ive-seen-inception-thread-spoilers-inevitable/546913.md?page=12)