# The Jew Question \[defining Jew and Christian. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809 "2009-07-03T13:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/241 "2009-07-09T19:05:48Z")
…this thread is making my head hurt. (?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/242 "2009-07-09T19:16:29Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Speaking of trinity, we’ve had the mental health card and the Native American heritage card. The physical ailments card will make it complete. Um, I have a mosquito bite – does that count? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/243 "2009-07-09T20:53:15Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Pinkskin bullshit artist? No, that’s not it. But it amounts to pretty much the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/244 "2009-07-09T22:32:10Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Speaking of trinity, we’ve had the mental health card and the Native American heritage card. The physical ailments card will make it complete. Oh c’mon. _I_ brought up the Native American heritage bit. It is unfair to peg that on **Lib**. And it is pertinent to these particular identity issues. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/245 "2009-07-10T18:45:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, that’s not it. But it amounts to pretty much the same thing. Bravo, but why not tell us more about this secret Cherokee mafia, and why you and you alone would be recruited by such a method. Instead of, oh I don’t know, every other tribe in the country that uses roster names and blood quotients. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/246 "2009-07-10T18:51:53Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Bravo, but why not tell us more about this secret Cherokee mafia, and why you and you alone would be recruited by such a method. Instead of, oh I don’t know, every other tribe in the country that uses roster names and blood quotients. What are you talking about? All I said was that there is a pejorative used by (some, usually young) Cherokee Tribe members to refer to people who have the credentials but have not joined the tribe. What does that have to do with anything about a secret mafia or solitary recruiting? There really seems to be no point to your posts to me — either one of them. If you have a point to make, then make it. And stop with the coy, veiled insults and cryptic references to things never mentioned, please. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/247 "2009-07-10T19:16:28Z")
Well since this thread is otherwise long played out, _if_ you wanted to pursue Cherokee tribal membership still **Lib** there currently is a [process](http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cherokee/n_a_resea.html) still open to you. Nothing time limited it seems, at least now. > [@](#): > > For those who seek a federally issued Certificate Degree of Indian Blood card (“CDIB”) as a Cherokee, then it must be issued through an application filed with one of these three Cherokee tribes: > > The Cherokee Nation, Tahlequah OK > The Keetoowah Band of Cherokees, Tahlequah OK > The North Carolina Band of the Cherokees, Cherokee NC > > For those who say that they “only want to be recognized as a Cherokee”-- there is no alternative certification… > > …If your direct ancestor was an original enrollee on the Dawes Commission Rolls and you apply for a Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood based on that relationship, you will be required to furnish an unbroken chain of state and/or court certified documents, or a judicial “determination of heirs” showing your relationship to the nearest lineal enrolled ancestor. The burden of proof is completely upon the applicant; If you do not know whether your ancestor was enrolled or the tribe, you must identify your ancestor and learn where they were living in Indian Territory in 1900. You can do this by searching the 1900 Indian Territory census, which can be rented (on microfilm) through your own local library. Finding them on the census will tell you which Indian Nation they were living in, and if the person is Indian, identify the tribe. If you are looking for a tribal member who was not of the Five Civilized Tribes, you should look on the 1900 Oklahoma Territory for your ancestor, then check with Tribal Headquarters or the tribal rolls in the Oklahoma State Historical Society. > > The Dawes Commission Roll Books are also available at many repositories in the United States, may be rented (again) through your own public library, and have been published. But you should also realize that “a NAME” does not “A RELATIONSHIP” make! As previously stated; the Final Roll of the Five Civilized Tribes contains 101,000 “names”, and although it may contain similar to identical names to your family, you must do the other research in order to determine if this is your ancestor – or if you are tracing someone else’s family. > > Some people may never be able to prove Indian heritage. It was (and normally is) the Universal Common Law. – that if a person leaves the country of their nativity and establishes themselves in another country, their citizenship in the country of their origin is not guaranteed. Further, the children born in the new country to these emigrants are legally citizens of the country of their birth. This means that if a person, for whatever reason, had been separated from the country of their birth (“the Indian Nation”) and had settled in another country (“the United States”), they forfeited not only their own rights to citizenship in the country of their nativity, but that of their descendants ---- forever. These laws have been challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court and on the floor of the Congress of the United States-- and each time they have been affirmed. These laws, however, are not unique just to the Indian tribes or even to the United States. And to try to bring this back to this op … think of accepting Christ metaphorically as having “settled in another country” ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/248 "2009-07-10T19:50:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What are you talking about? All I said was that there is a pejorative used by (some, usually young) Cherokee Tribe members to refer to people who have the credentials but have not joined the tribe. No, that’s not all you said. > [@Liberal](#): > > I am not a member of the Cherokee tribe. I had the opportunity at one time in my life to join, but I was a mess, and the deal is not open-ended. Once your time is up, your time is up. (Someone told me that that has changed, but the source is not trustworthy.) That’s not how tribal memberships work, generally. That’s certainly not how the Cherokee seem to work. I just want to know more about this “opportunity”, how “the deal is not open-ended”, and how “once your time is up, your time is up.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/249 "2009-07-10T20:30:47Z")
I appreciate your doing that research, DSeid, but I already knew about that. Those are laws of the United States, and deal with obtaining a “federally issued Certificate Degree of Indian Blood card”. Stress on the word _federally_. Many Indian nations, however, still claim sovereignty and treaty rights, even when they have been ignored or broken by the United States. In fact, the United States recognizes only three “official” Cherokee tribes: The Cherokee Nation (of Oklahoma), The Eastern Band of Cherokees (which would apply to me), and the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians. Each nation has its own _internal_ rules and laws governing membership _above and beyond_ what is required by the United States. The Eastern Band, for example, requires 1/16 blood and proof of descendency from the Baker Roll of 1924. I actually called the Eastern Band headquarters enrollment office (at 800-438-1601) to ask about the limitations statute, which no longer applies. Upon qualification, the Eastern Band will then issue a CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood) irrespective of any certificate issued by the United States. At any rate, I am not lamenting the fact that I am not a member of one tribe or another. You can even join tribes that are not federally recognized by pretty much just claiming to be Cherokee and paying up your dues. (Like [The United Cherokee Nation](http://theucn.com/becomingamember.html), for example.) Cherokee law, in its own right, dates back to 1852, when the then Cherokee Nation attempted to secede from the United States, before they were split up and scattered here and yonder. Here are exerpts from the original [Cherokeee Constitution](http://www.commonlaw.com/Cherokee.html). The various rolls requirements (the Dawes rolls, the Baker rolls, etc.) are extremely difficult in some circumstances to fulfill, and are often moot, given that many (and I mean _many_) Indians did not sign these rolls for a variety of reasons. And the point I was making about the pejorative is that, in some instances, the whole thing has become almost cliquish. It’s easy to qualify if, say, your parents are qualified. And then to ridicule someone who is not a member is, in my opinion, rude. Not to mention Puritanical in nature. I couldn’t care less whether I have ancestors on the Baker Roll, or whether I’m “in the club”. My pride in my culture comes from my grandmother, whose dark eyes and spade nose, and high cheek bones, and long gray hair, along with her extensive knowledge of the language and culture is completely sufficient to satisfy me as to who or what I am. Thanks for helping me to understand you better. I hope I have done the same for you in return. You’re a good egg. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/250 "2009-07-10T20:35:04Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > That’s not how tribal memberships work, generally. That’s certainly not how the Cherokee seem to work. I just want to know more about this “opportunity”, how “the deal is not open-ended”, and how “once your time is up, your time is up.” As I explained to **DSeid** , I called the headquarters to inquire about that. She told me that she had heard that same thing before, but that it is incorrect, and that if it ever applied, it no longer applies. She was not sure whether it applied in the 1960s and 70s, but said that it does not apply now. My ignorance is cleared up. Hopefully, your curiosity is satisfied. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/251 "2009-07-10T20:52:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As I explained to **DSeid** , I called the headquarters to inquire about that. She told me that she had heard that same thing before, but that it is incorrect, and that if it ever applied, it no longer applies. She was not sure whether it applied in the 1960s and 70s, but said that it does not apply now. My ignorance is cleared up. Hopefully, your curiosity is satisfied. Well if your family isn’t on the roll it sounds like there was some backdoor way into getting a tribal card that I’m sure the seemingly millions and millions and _millions_ of nearly full-blooded yet oddly unclaimed Cherokee out there would _love_ to hear about. I wouldn’t want them to miss the opportunity, because apparently the deal is not open-ended, and once your time is up, your time is up. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/252 "2009-07-10T21:18:55Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Bravo, but why not tell us more about this secret Cherokee mafia, and why you and you alone would be recruited by such a method. Instead of, oh I don’t know, every other tribe in the country that uses roster names and blood quotients. Why are you even asking this question in this thread? I see constant references to **Lib** “making it all about him,” and as soon as he is quiet for an hour or two, someone comes along and snidely pokes him to see if they can get him to post about himself. Knock it off. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/253 "2009-07-10T21:53:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Why are you even asking this question in this thread? Because he’s holding himself out as a member of a minority group, and doing so in a way that strongly suggests that he’s lying. If he’s not lying, then he should tell us how someone that isn’t on the rolls, but who has the blood quotient, still got an “opportunity” to join the tribe anyway. And if he is lying then he shouldn’t be posting this crap. Be sure to stop by later for more tips on how to do your _job_, man. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/254 "2009-07-10T23:48:34Z")
nvm, didn’t see tom’s post before posting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/255 "2009-07-11T00:12:40Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Because he’s holding himself out as a member of a minority group, and doing so in a way that strongly suggests that he’s lying. If he’s not lying, then he should tell us how someone that isn’t on the rolls, but who has the blood quotient, still got an “opportunity” to join the tribe anyway. And if he is lying then he shouldn’t be posting this crap. > > Be sure to stop by later for more tips on how to do your _job_, man. Well, part of my job is making sure that [posters do not accuse each other of lying in this forum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632). Since you are clearly in violation of that rule and since you have gone out of your way to ignore all the posts that preceded and prompted **Lib** ’s comments, (hint, they often include the word “tribal”), I am now telling you that you are out of bounds and that if you continue either this hijack or your accusations of lying you are going to endanger your posting privileges. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/256 "2009-07-11T04:06:39Z")
If testimony is needed of my culture, you need only consult Triskadecamus, Polycarp, and SkullDigger, all of whom have visited my home, and all of whom have slept in rooms with pictures and artifacts of my ancestors. They have met my family. They will tell you I am not lying. And this thing about some backdoor entry into the tribe or whatever it is makes no sense to me. There is no such entry that I am aware of, nor have I claimed that there is. Formulating straw men and arguing against them is a silly exercize. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/257 "2009-07-11T04:26:58Z")
**Lib** , wasting your time replying to cheap shots about you just feeds the perceptions of your anti-fan club that you have a need to keep yourself at the center of discussions. It is not relevant to this thread. It is no one’s business but yours. Your replies simply become fodder for the next round of stupid cheap shots. You do not owe antagonists explanations. They won’t believe you anyway. You are continuing a hijack. Let it go–in this thread and in the vast majority of other threads. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/258 "2009-07-11T13:49:47Z")
Okay. Sorry. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/259 "2009-07-11T15:33:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Lib** , wasting your time replying to cheap shots about you just feeds the perceptions of your anti-fan club that you have a need to keep yourself at the center of discussions. > > It is not relevant to this thread. It is no one’s business but yours. Your replies simply become fodder for the next round of stupid cheap shots. > You do not owe antagonists explanations. They won’t believe you anyway. You are continuing a hijack. > > Let it go–in this thread and in the vast majority of other threads. > > [/Modding] **tomndebb** - I agree with your position, but you said it yourself. “_It is no one’s business but yours_”. Can’t you at least admonish **Liberal** for dragging in information that is not pertinent to the thread? Once he drags his baggage in, isn’t it fair game? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/260 "2009-07-11T17:38:14Z")
Well apparently the [British courts](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098950.html) feel that Jews are not qualified to decide who is a Jew, so confusion as to who is one may be understandable. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > In a decision that has shocked the country’s 300,000-strong Jewish community, the Court of Appeal held that ongoing personal acts of faith, rather than birth or conversion, must define who is a Jew. … > > … The ruling means that Jewish schools of any denomination, whether privately or state funded, will be barred from giving priority to children who are born Jewish or who convert, and instead must consider how the children and their families practice their Judaism. > > The move throws into disarray the admissions arrangements for Britain’s 97 Orthodox schools and may force them to introduce “faith tests” - like church schools, which require fortnightly attendance at Sunday services. … Y’know I don’t mind ignorance, but people acting on their ignorance arrogantly like this is beyond the pale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=14)