# The Jew Question \[defining Jew and Christian. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809 "2009-07-03T13:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/261 "2009-07-11T19:56:06Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > **tomndebb** - I agree with your position, but you said it yourself. “_It is no one’s business but yours_”. Can’t you at least admonish **Liberal** for dragging in information that is not pertinent to the thread? Once he drags his baggage in, isn’t it fair game? He just did — only two posts before yours. Complete with modding tag and everything. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/262 "2009-07-11T20:36:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well apparently the [British courts](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098950.html) feel that Jews are not qualified to decide who is a Jew, so confusion as to who is one may be understandable. :rolleyes: > Y’know I don’t mind ignorance, but people acting on their ignorance arrogantly like this is beyond the pale. Hold on! You really need to back off. this has nothing , repeat nothing to do who is a Jew or not. It has everything to do with who is religious or not. It has everything to do with making sure that a private institution does not discriminate on the basis of race. It has everything to do with allowing religious discrimination. Liberal Jews welcomed the ruling. do they not count? > [@](#): > > Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks said: ?Ethnicity is irrelevant to Jewish identity, according to Jewish law. Education has been the crucible of Judaism throughout the millennia, and the development of Jewish faith schools is one of Anglo Jewry?s greatest achievements." You Jews in general may have a particular definition of who is a Jew or not, which we accept, but when it comes to racial/ethnic discrimination, you do not get a bye. Period. ---
**Author:** ![scalporf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@scalporf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scalporf)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/263 "2009-07-12T05:44:50Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > **tomndebb** - I agree with your position, but you said it yourself. “_It is no one’s business but yours_”. Can’t you at least admonish **Liberal** for dragging in information that is not pertinent to the thread? Once he drags his baggage in, isn’t it fair game? It’s truly revolting that you would question this Brave’s right to discuss his heritage in a thread whose very purpose is to discuss ethnic and religious backgrounds. You are the Andrew Jackson of the Straight Dope Message Board. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/264 "2009-07-12T06:15:04Z")
Orthodox and Liberal Judaism are very different beasts with very different takes. To put it in context [Liberal Judaism](http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/subdivisions/liberal_6.shtml) was “established … in Britain as a movement whose character resembled the radical end of American Reform Judaism.” Liberal Jews are not being told anything that isn’t already kosher by them and are not being affected in any way, other than that the Orthodox are being told that they must accept Liberal interpretation of who is a Jew as valid. I have no idea what the relationship is between the movements in Britain but judging from this I doubt it is good. Throughout the world many Orthodox Jews will not accept a Reform conversion as valid and some considered Jewish by the Reform movement (father Jewish and raised in a Jewish household) would not be Jewish by Orthodox or Conservative standards. About [60%](http://books.google.com/books?id=7gV7kXHtiyQC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=orthodox+conservative+liberal+Jew+britain+percent&source=bl&ots=Vxy2LjatN7&sig=1MTjwxc6td0IIUYN9QF2nVSKogo&hl=en&ei=yXhZSqWkCZXENqqNqEM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1) of Britain’s Jews are Orthodox (very different than in America) and Liberal Jews are some fraction of the mere 20 to 25% that call themselves Progressive. What Jews in Britain are being told is that they must accept as Jewish someone that Jewish religious law as understood by all but a small minority of the Jewish population says is not Jewish. They are being told that they must accept the Christian perspective of that it is “acts of faith” that define Jewish religious identity and ignore Jewish religious law. Specifically in this case an Orthodox school is being told that they must accept a Progressive conversion as valid. Or by strict reading, accept anyone as Jewish if they say they are and attend services, even if they were neither born Jewish or converted. And would deny a secular Jew as being Jewish at all. This has everything to do with the British courts deciding who is a Jew for the Jews. And no I do not need to back off. They do. ---
**Author:** ![scalporf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@scalporf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scalporf)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/265 "2009-07-12T06:21:15Z")
I believe that some German fellows came to a final solution to the Jewish Question around 70 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/266 "2009-07-13T14:02:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > This has everything to do with the British courts deciding who is a Jew for the Jews. > > And no I do not need to back off. They do. Well, I wonder how all this came about . It seems most likely to me that that the initial refusal of admission was appealed to the civil authorities by Jews to settle a matter that they couldn’t settle themselves. And while the ruling is disputed on the basis of the government deciding who is a Jew or not, it seems simple enough to me that any sanctioned government supported religiously discriminatory institution must adhere to the general constraints imposed on all religious institutions. Ethnic discrimination is a no no. This is no different than when Shariah rulings are challenged in civil courts. The law of the land must be adhered to. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/267 "2009-07-13T14:23:30Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Well, I wonder how all this came about . It seems most likely to me that that the initial refusal of admission was appealed to the civil authorities by Jews to settle a matter that they couldn’t settle themselves. > > And while the ruling is disputed on the basis of the government deciding who is a Jew or not, it seems simple enough to me that any sanctioned government supported religiously discriminatory institution must adhere to the general constraints imposed on all religious institutions. Ethnic discrimination is a no no. > > This is no different than when Shariah rulings are challenged in civil courts. The law of the land must be adhered to. The problem with this ruling is that it mutates and mutilates the meaning of what it is to be Jewish. Now, according to the article, one will need a “faith test” to establish if you are Jewish or not - when “faith” is not, as a matter of fact, central to the meaning of Judaism. It is attempting to force Judaism into the Christian mold of what a “faith” is (as even the word “faith” does - again, Judaism is as much a tribal affiliation as it is a religion). The fact that some percentage of Jews readily agree with the “faith” descriptor doesn’t make it right, as Judaism has no single authority to establish this. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/268 "2009-07-13T20:54:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > … it seems simple enough to me that \*\*any sanctioned government supported \*\* religiously discriminatory institution … > [@](#): > > … Jewish schools of any denomination, **whether privately or state funded** , will be barred from giving priority to children who are born Jewish or who convert, and instead must consider how the children and their families practice their Judaism… In both cases bolding mine. Jewish religious schools in Britain are barred from preferentially educating kids who by Jewish law are Jewish, whether or not they take state funds. No conversion needed. By state law if you take on the trappings and pass a (by Jewish tradition meaningless) faith test then you are Jewish. It is simple enough. The state knows best and the Christian faith based religious perspective is what counts. Jewish law be damned. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/269 "2009-07-14T10:39:39Z")
> [@scalporf](#): > > It’s truly revolting that you would question this Brave’s right to discuss his heritage in a thread whose very purpose is to discuss ethnic and religious backgrounds. > > You are the Andrew Jackson of the Straight Dope Message Board. Has my dollar coin been issued yet? I’m very excited to see myself in 3D. (whoa. 7 posts and banned? Me thinks this person said something bad very recently. I have to keep up. Where DO you people find the time?) Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=13)