# The Jew Question \[defining Jew and Christian. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809 "2009-07-03T13:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/81 "2009-07-04T20:20:37Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My understanding (which could very well be mistaken) is that the “Messianic Jews” was a movement specifically for Jews who wanted to become Christian (i.e. to follow/worship/accept Jesus as the Messiah in the Christian sense) Depends. We can leave aside groups like “Jews for Jesus” who were founded to deliberately use deception and fraud in order to trick vulnerable and lonely Jews into becoming Christians. Even with that aside, there already was a movement for Jews (or anybody else) to become Christians, and it’s named Christianity. Of course, the rub was: > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > _without_ giving up their Jewish identity, culture, and customs—much as Jesus’s original Jewish followers did. The example of Jesus’ followers might show how effective they were at keeping Jewish customs. 😉 I’d also add that, sooner or later, it’s pretty much inevitable. Hence, even secret Jews in Spain whose descendants no longer know they’re Jews. Or people who identify as “German” or “Irish” or what have you, as 3rd generation Americans, who would be told “No, you’re just an American” by native Germans and Irish folks. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If a person who was Jewish in every sense of the word somehow became convinced that Jesus was who Christians understand him to be, and wanted to follow him, that person might well ask, “Can I become a Christian and still remain a Jew?” (Which is sort of the question that started this thread.) And the answer would be that religiously he’d placed himself firmly outside of Judaism and that, essentially, he’d left the tribe. His children would be brought up as Christians, and that was the culture he’d chosen for himself and his family. He might very well be used to, even able to fit into Jewish culture, but he’s no longer a Jew in any real sense. He’s become a “Christian who has Jewish heritage.” There is, really, no difference between him and a gentile who grew up around Jews and can sling the lingo. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But my understanding is that the Messianic Jews want to give as much of a Yes as possible to the question. Sure they do. Likewise, I want to have Jeri Ryan be my personal love Goddess on alternating weekends. I’m rooting for myself, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/82 "2009-07-04T20:26:31Z")
> [@eeziduzit](#): > > Well, it appears that a Jew who believes in Christ may now operate a kosher establishment in Israel, so we must be getting pretty damn close to fusion: > > [http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1096627.html](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1096627.html) That has nothing to do with anything - many Muslim owned and operated restaurants are certified kosher, too. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/83 "2009-07-04T21:36:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s irrelevant. Jews do not venerate Jesus because Christians venerate Jesus, and Jews are not Christians. Not irrelevant at all. I was responding to the statement, “You can’t be Christian **(that is, believe in the divinity of Jesus)** and be Jewish.” (Emphasis mine.) If you want to change the phrasing of what Malthus said, that’s fine. But don’t say that my post was irrelevant just because you substitute “venerate” for “believe in the divinity of” _after the fact_. ---
**Author:** ![eeziduzit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@eeziduzit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eeziduzit)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/84 "2009-07-05T01:25:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That has nothing to do with anything - many Muslim owned and operated restaurants are certified kosher, too. If this was just an irrelevant, _ho-hum_, _yawn_, everyday event, then the Supreme Court of Israel wouldn’t have had to slap down the Attorney General, the Chief Rabbinate and the Ashdod Rabbinate over the affair. These entities opposed granting of kashrut certification because they were fully aware that it would lend Messianic Judaism greater Jewish authenticity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/85 "2009-07-05T01:30:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There are Jews, there are Christians, and there are some Christians who like to call themselves Jews. And no matter how absurd you think it is, the only people who get an opinion on who is a Jew, are Jews. Until and unless they get a trademark on it, nope. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/86 "2009-07-05T02:16:37Z")
> [@eeziduzit](#): > > If this was just an irrelevant, _ho-hum_, _yawn_, everyday event, then the Supreme Court of Israel wouldn’t have had to slap down the Attorney General, the Chief Rabbinate and the Ashdod Rabbinate over the affair. > > These entities opposed granting of kashrut certification because they were fully aware that it would lend Messianic Judaism greater Jewish authenticity. There is no requirement that someone be Jewish in order to sell kosher food. This is absoluely meaningless, and I assure, not even close to a recognition of so-called “Messianic Jews” as anything other than garden variety evangelical Christians. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/87 "2009-07-05T02:39:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Even with that aside, there already was a movement for Jews (or anybody else) to become Christians, and it’s named Christianity. Have you ever been to a Messianic congregation or service? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/88 "2009-07-05T02:58:05Z")
If you’re asking whether or not I’ve been to Christian services, then yes. If you’re asking whether or not I’ve been to Christian services that pretend some sort of connection to Judaism? Then no. Oh, and: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Until and unless they get a trademark on it, nope. If you’re really suggesting that Jews have to trademark our religion in order to prevent predatory liars and idiots from pretending to be Jews, then I’m not sure what there is to be said. We can point out the truth even in the face of “Messianic” trickery/nomenclature, and we don’t need government sanction to do it, either. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/89 "2009-07-05T04:37:39Z")
I’m still waiting to hear whether a man and his wife are literally one flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/90 "2009-07-05T05:02:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Coupla points. One, many people call themselves Christians and do not believe in any Trinity, or even that Jesus is God. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Latter Day Saints come to mind. For them, their Christian God is not a Trinity. And two, the scripture says, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24) Does Judaism hold that a man and his wife are literally one flesh? Of course not, but Christians do think that Jesus is literally God or a “son of God,” which is completely incompatable with Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/91 "2009-07-05T05:07:01Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m still waiting to hear whether a man and his wife are literally one flesh. I don’t think he has an answer for that but I find this Jewish concept you brought up of two persons in one living being rather interesting when trying to persuade Jews that Christians believe in the same one and only God. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/92 "2009-07-05T05:09:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Of course not, but Christians do think that Jesus is literally God or a “son of God,” which is completely incompatable with Judaism. There are references to sons of God in the old testament. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/93 "2009-07-05T05:23:01Z")
**Lib** , most Jews believe that the Torah is _full_ of metaphors. Like that one. Are you trying to say that the trinity is also a metaphor and that Christianity does _not_ (for most if not all Christian denominations) believe in Christ’s literal divinity? More to the point, are you claiming that those who call themselves “Messianic Jews” are _not_ accepting Christ as part of a literal trinity, as God’s son who died for their sins, but are just declaring that Christ was one heckuva Rebbe and they want to study his teachings and his interpretations of Torah? Because maybe then you’d be within some sort of spitting distance of making some sort of point. But since they are instead stating that they accept Christ’s divinity, which places them clearly outside being religiously Jewish, you are not even within a parsec of a point to be made. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/94 "2009-07-05T06:03:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you’re really suggesting that Jews have to trademark our religion in order to prevent predatory liars and idiots from pretending to be Jews No… I’m saying you (well, we, I guess) can’t _stop_ liars and idiots (or anyone, actually) from claiming to be Jews. It’s not a Jewish thing, though - any religion can have people claiming membership even if others (who may or may not also claim membership) choose not to recognize that claim. All a trademark would do is allow us to take secular legal action against claims we didn’t like. > [@](#): > > We can point out the truth even in the face of “Messianic” trickery/nomenclature, and we don’t need government sanction to do it, either. :rolleyes: Yes, that is exactly the sum total of what you can legally do. I suppose if God was real, we could get him to do some smiting on our behalf, but since He’s been altogether silent these last ~3500 years, we’ll just have to put up with it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/95 "2009-07-05T06:40:02Z")
Would you people just stop it? Christianity has been the enemy of the Jewish People for centuries. We’ve managed to hammer out an uneasy truce over recent generations - so why are you people trying so hard to violate it? Leave. Us. Alone. You worship your religion, or not, and we’ll worship ours, or not, and never the twain shall meet. Stop trying to find “common ground” - we don’t want any. And make up your own damn myths. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/96 "2009-07-05T13:10:52Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Do all mainstream Christian sects believe in a trinity? I know Catholicism does. And where does that notion come from, anyway? I can’t recall any biblical references to that, although my biblical knowledge is pretty slim. I’m probably using the term “Trinity” incorrectly. If you believe that God had a son, reincarnated himself as his own son, was simultaneously himself and his own son–I’m using the term “trinity” to cover that. Now that I type it out, I’m probably wrong on the definition. If you call yourself a “Christian” and don’ believe in the divinity of Jesus and follow his teachings, you’re not using (as far as I know) a usage that 99% of the world shares. Christian=Follower of Christ & his teachings. Christ (as far as I know) said the bit about “I have come to fulfill the law.” To Jews _no-one can do that_. Christ claimed to be a unique [Son of God](http://www.christianity.com/Christian%20Foundations/Jesus/11567468/). That is antithetical to Jewish teachings. Right now, I’m a short, hairy, gravel-voiced white guy. I can _claim_ to be a tall, leggy black woman who looks like (and sings like) Miram Makeba and there’s no law against it. BUT I WOULD BE WRONG and people would look at me funny. Right now, there are groups of people who accept that Jesus was a divine (aka: supernatural powers) Messiah who was the Son of God. They call themselves “Jews”. They are ALSO wrong. Again, forget the cultural stuff. The Jewish faith has rules. Per some in this thread, the Christian faith doesn’t\*. If you believe that Jesus was divine in any way/shape/sense or was related to God in any way/shape/sense, you’re not Jewish (religiously). Groups like Jews For Jesus are trying to define Judaism out of existence. If being a Jew means (in the popular mind) anything, then it means nothing. \*Which surprises me. I thought that, at bare minimum, if you didn’t believe in John 3:16, you weren’t Christian. I thought that was the single, non-negotiable piece of Christianity. If not, what’s to stop say, a follower of, say Voodoo to claim that they were Christians? Yeah, there’s no law against it, but people would point and laugh. Words _mean_ things. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/97 "2009-07-05T13:14:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No… I’m saying you (well, we, I guess) can’t _stop_ liars and idiots (or anyone, actually) from claiming to be Jews. It’s not a Jewish thing, though - any religion can have people claiming membership even if others (who may or may not also claim membership) choose not to recognize that claim. All a trademark would do is allow us to take secular legal action against claims we didn’t like. Of course we can’t stop it. But we _can_ inform and educate people. If the Jews For Jesus type attempts\* try to exterminate the term “Jew” as a meaningful definition, what the Jews in this thread are doing is really the only way to retaliate. I hate to use this phrase, but it’s just too apt “Silence equals death”. If “Jew” can mean anything (in the popular culture) it means nothing. \*And “Messianic Jews” to a much, MUCH lesser attempt ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/98 "2009-07-05T14:59:52Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Even given that, however, there’s a very reasonable school of thought to the effect that Christianity is a branch of Judaism. Its descendant, as it were. Christian religion is basically Judaism at the core, just with whast we believe are additional revealed truths which modified our previous understanding. To us, modern-day Jews are the ones who split off from the root. In the same way Islam is a branch of Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/99 "2009-07-05T15:25:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Would you people just stop it? > > Christianity has been the enemy of the Jewish People for centuries. We’ve managed to hammer out an uneasy truce over recent generations - so why are you people trying so hard to violate it? Leave. Us. Alone. You worship your religion, or not, and we’ll worship ours, or not, and never the twain shall meet. Stop trying to find “common ground” - we don’t want any. > > And make up your own damn myths. That’s it…no more weapons for you! And be a dear and handle that Iran problem on your own, won’t you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/100 "2009-07-05T15:44:38Z")
But we need those gun for when Jesus returns and we have to fight the Armies of the Dark One at Megiddo! _(Snerk)._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=6)