# The Jew Question \[defining Jew and Christian. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809 "2009-07-03T13:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/101 "2009-07-05T15:49:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Would you people just stop it? > > Christianity has been the enemy of the Jewish People for centuries. We’ve managed to hammer out an uneasy truce over recent generations - so why are you people trying so hard to violate it? Leave. Us. Alone. You worship your religion, or not, and we’ll worship ours, or not, and never the twain shall meet. Stop trying to find “common ground” - we don’t want any. > > And make up your own damn myths. Is it just Christianity? Would a philosophical Taoist Jew be an oxymoron too? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/102 "2009-07-05T15:57:27Z")
Interesting question. Probably not - besides the fact that Judaism doesn’t have the same kind of history with Taoism as it has with Christianity, Taoism (unless I’m mistaken, in which case I apologize) is barely a religion to begin with. There’s nothing wrong with studying foreign philosophy; Maimonides himself was an avid student of Aristotle. I’d draw a line on building a shrine to the Buddha, though (and yes, I know that’s Zen, not Tao). Incidentally, yoga and its associated philosophies are very popular here in Israel, even among observant Jews. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/103 "2009-07-05T16:32:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Would a philosophical Taoist Jew be an oxymoron too? No. Buddhism is a life philosophy that doesn’t contradict the Jewish religion as far as I know. In fact, “Bu-Jews” are very common. From my life observations, two places where you will see huge numbers of Jewish people relative to the population are Buddhist temples and Grateful Dead shows. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/104 "2009-07-05T16:46:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Is it just Christianity? Would a philosophical Taoist Jew be an oxymoron too? They believe in the eight powerful immortals, do they not ? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/105 "2009-07-05T17:00:09Z")
I have a question for the Jews in this thread. The purpose is to understand how serious the question of the OP is to them. If you knew of a born Jew who secretly coverted to Christianity and applied to emmigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, would you out him ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/106 "2009-07-05T17:11:00Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > They believe in the eight powerful immortals, do they not ? They don’t have too. Philosphical Taoism is different from religious Taoism. Philosophical Taoism pretty much has no theological or supernatural component. It’s a meditative discipline, very similar to Zen. There is nothing in it that would contradict Judaism. It’s not a religion. Religious Taoism is not really a single religion, but an umbrella term for a wide variety of Chinese folk traditions which can involve anything from polytheistic worship, to ancestor worship to alchemy, to demonology and exorcism. There is no unifying doctrine to any of it – no orthodoxy or heterodoxy. It’s virtually meaningless to even use the single word “Taoism” for it, since all that really denotes is “all the Chinese folk religions.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/107 "2009-07-05T17:12:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I have a question for the Jews in this thread. The purpose is to understand how serious the question of the OP is to them. > > If you knew of a born Jew who secretly coverted to Christianity and applied to emmigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, would you out him ? Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/108 "2009-07-05T17:14:20Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I have a question for the Jews in this thread. The purpose is to understand how serious the question of the OP is to them. > > If you knew of a born Jew who secretly coverted to Christianity and applied to emmigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, would you out him ? Since I believe the Orthodox control the legal definition of “Jew” in Israel I think his secret conversion would be immaterial. “Jew” in that context is less a question of religious belief than a legal definition. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/109 "2009-07-05T17:14:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Wouldn’t you? I’m not a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/110 "2009-07-05T17:22:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Since I believe the Orthodox control the legal definition of “Jew” in Israel I think his secret conversion would be immaterial. “Jew” in that context is less a question of religious belief than a legal definition. [From Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return) > [@](#): > > The Law of Return also excludes any “person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/111 "2009-07-05T17:22:37Z")
[I was wrong.](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/Text_of_Law_of_Return.html) > [@](#): > > 4B. For the purposes of this Law, “Jew” means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion. I don’t know if I’d out the person or not. And I don’t see the importance of the question to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/112 "2009-07-05T17:26:29Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > There are references to sons of God in the old testament. Judaism does not interpret that literally. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/113 "2009-07-05T17:28:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m not a Jew. So what? You would still be aware of someone trying to defraud the Israeli government. Why wouldn’t you report it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/114 "2009-07-05T17:29:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? You would still be aware of someone trying to defraud the Israeli government. Why wouldn’t you report it? Its none of my business. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/115 "2009-07-05T17:31:51Z")
I’m not an Israeli citizen. It is also not my business. I’m not sure what level of crime would cross my line to report though. This maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/116 "2009-07-05T17:36:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? You would still be aware of someone trying to defraud the Israeli government. Why wouldn’t you report it? Personally I wouldn’t report it because I’m deeply uncomfortable with a religious test for any government status, anywhere, anytime. Even in Israel. Israel serves a function because Jews–both ethnic and religious–were singled out repeated throughout history for persecution, and it’s a good idea to have a core power structure in place that makes it more difficult for that to happen going forward. Excluding ethnic-but-not-religious Jews from that power structure undermines its raison d’etre IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/117 "2009-07-05T17:36:53Z")
If he was just coming to live here, then I probably wouldn’t inform on him - he wouldn’t be harming anyone, and I’m not a rat. But if he was coming to proselytize, then I don’t know; I probably would alert the authorities. You have to understand the Israeli attitude towards missionary work. It isn’t just a matter of history; it’s also a practical issue. We have a couple of very hostile groups of people sharing this country. Can you imagine what would happen if Muslims started converting Jews, or Jews converting Muslims? We have enough bloodshed here as it is. So we’ve reached an ironclad staus quo: each religion looks after its own, and doesn’t try to turn the other. And yes, that includes Christians. This boat is shaky enough - we don’t need people coming round and rocking it some more. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/118 "2009-07-05T17:40:29Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > If you knew of a born Jew who secretly coverted to Christianity and applied to emmigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, would you out him ? Without knowing anything else about him, I wouldn’t out the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/119 "2009-07-05T17:58:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Personally I wouldn’t report it because I’m deeply uncomfortable with a religious test for any government status, anywhere, anytime. Even in Israel. Israel serves a function because Jews–both ethnic and religious–were singled out repeated throughout history for persecution, and it’s a good idea to have a core power structure in place that makes it more difficult for that to happen going forward. Excluding ethnic-but-not-religious Jews from that power structure undermines its raison d’etre IMO. Should they exclude non-ethnic, converted Jews then? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809/120 "2009-07-05T17:59:53Z")
I would totally nark the guy out, by the way. I don’t like frauds and sneaks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jew-question-defining-jew-and-christian-ed-title/501809.md?page=7)