# The Jews and Romans Killed Jesus. Why Is That Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 27, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491 "2004-02-27T17:28:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/21 "2004-02-28T09:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Up to the time Jesus went to Jerusalem, the Romans didn’t give a wet slap about him. They sort of figured he as another religious crackpot, and ignored him. The Temple priests, however, viewed him as a threat to their power base, and wanted him gone. Being under Roman rule, they couldn’t do anything like have him publicly stoned, because only the Romans had the power of capital punishment. My understanding from some other (GD) threads about this movie is that that’s wrong- if the priests had wanted to kill him for blasphemy, they could have gone ahead and done so. The Romans wouldn’t have cared about that, they would however have been concerned if he was stirring up the rabble too much. Anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/22 "2004-02-28T11:29:47Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > So I’m still comfortable with my question. Is the Christ-killer bit the reason for the hatred of Jews, or is there some other reason–e.g. their stubborn refusal to become Christian–that generated the hate and the Christ-killing became an incendiary tool in encouraging the hate? I think it’s probably a bit of both. History isn’t my strong suit, though, so please bear with me. From what I’ve seen of human nature, people have a strong tendency to hate that which is different, and even try to eliminate it. Jews had different customs from Christians, ate different foods, and worshipped on a different day of the week. Judaism also, I believe, forbids charging interest to Jews, and Christians didn’t charge interest to Christians, but Jews were allowed charge interest on money loaned to Christians, making them very roughly equivalent to today’s credit card industry (see _The Merchant of Venice_). They were different; they didn’t want to become like us; worse yet, they made money off of us! Throw in the way Matthew is written and Passion Plays depicting the death of Christ and you get, I’m afraid, the Holocaust. That still saddens and shames me. When I learned about World War II in high school and college, one of the things which stuck in my mind is up until the 1940s, on Good Friday, the day Christians commemorate Christ’s crucifiction, people would come out of church and beat gay people up. I gather many, many people believed that some traditional passover foods required the blood of Christians. Passover is one of the most sacred of holidays for Jews and it roughly coincides with Christianity’s Easter because Easter came out of Christ’s celebrating Passover. After a service which wallows in guilt, outrage, and anger, here you have a nice, secretive, set apart group of people who can be blamed for the events which have left you guilty, outraged, and angry. I know firsthand what people in small towns can do to people who are different. It’s not pretty. I also know what it’s like to sit in a church in a small town on Good Friday while a carpenter pounds nails into a wooden cross reminding us of Christ’s suffering. Even knowing it would come, I flinched. We all know people who believe they can do know wrong. I would think it would be easy for such a person to turn that guilt on to another target, especially one he thinks his priest has told him it’s ok to hate. I like the part about keeping witnessing out of IMHO, and I’m trying to provide contrast, not witness, but what I’m about to write could be taken as such, so I’ll put it in a spoiler box. One of the things I like about my Episcopal Church is wha we do on Palm Sunday, the Sunday before Easter, when we commemorate and re-enact Christ’s entry into Jerusalem, trial, and crucifixion. During the trial, when Pilate is asking the crowd what they want to do with Jesus of Nazareth, the reply is “Crucify him!” Instead of having someone representing “the Jews” do this, the congregation as a whole shouts this, more than once if I recall. At the beginning of the service, we sang loudly, lustily, and proudly, “All glory, laud, and honor/To Thee, Redeemer, King!/ To whom the lips of children/made sweet hosannas ring!” Now, we, not some third party who we can blame the troubles of the world on, but we, good Christians standing in church on a spring Sunday morning, call for the death of the very person we claim to worship. I’m told Lent, the season of repentence which precedes Easter, isn’t much acknowledged in some forms of Christianity, but even for those who haven’t spent the past 6 weeks reminding themselves of their sinfulness, the events of Holy Week, the week before Easter are powerful, and the emotions they produce are unpleasant. How does one admit to complicity in the destruction of all that one calls “holy”? For some people, unfortunately, the answer seems to be, “You don’t. You find someone else to blame.” Good Friday, I think, is supposed to be thought-provoking and troubling. I am a Christian. Therefore, I have no claim to righteousness. One other thing I’ll point out lest it get lost in the shuffle. Painful though the crucifxion was, it is a necessary and essential part of the Christian faith. If Christ had not died, he would have been just another wandering rabbi. Had he not risen, he would be, at best, what the Muslims call him, a Prophet, and at worst what some atheists call him – a dead nutcase. My possibly irrational belief says something else. It also says the despair he knew and what he suffered at our hands, at my hands, was _necessary_, not so much for him, but for us. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Omnipresent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@Omnipresent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omnipresent)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/23 "2004-02-28T12:06:22Z")
Yes, you’re quite correct. True Christians are given a bad rap by a discriminating faction, beit anit-semite or what-have-you. I’m not preaching here, just stating a Christian stance (or, a Jesus teaching), that, “Love your enemies”. Truly. It’s funny because, that’s what last week’s gospel was about. “Love your enemies”. “Love and compansion is what seperates us from the beast”. “An eye for an eye leaves us all blind”. As Christians, that’s what we’re supposed to believe and that’s how we should live. So, a true Christian can’t possibly be an anti-semite or discrimate in ANY way. It’s a beautiful way to live. I agree. But, we’re human beings too. We feel. And sometimes we react to pain that we feel. I try. I really do. However, someone abducts one of my little sons, rapes and dismembers him and scatters his body parts all over some woods somewhere, I’ll admit to being hard pressed not go nuts on his ass!!! Love thy neighbor can only go sooooo far at times. What’s my point again? Oh yea, true Christians CAN’T be anti-semites. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/24 "2004-02-28T13:02:11Z")
[hijack] > [@Jackknifed Juggernaut](#): > > Being a Hindu, I don’t know a great deal about other religions. That goes with the territory? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/25 "2004-02-28T14:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > “Love your enemies”. I’ve never quite understood that… your enemy is someone you hate, right? If you love him he is no longer your enemy, right? So… It’s basically “Love Everyone” …right? And “Love Everyone” is what Christianity has been all about these last couple of millennia… I’m all for loving my neighbour, not coveting his ass and all that but by definition my enemy is someone I hate and therefore I can’t love him too. Seeing as I don’t even remember what the OP was about let me conclude this with… [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/26 "2004-02-28T16:57:24Z")
This is getting awfully close to a GD thread, but I will wade into the fray some more… Git, “Love your enemies” doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to feed them vino and brie, nor snog them on the street corner. The point is to forgive the evils that others do to you. Say someone mugs you, and in the process beats the living crap out of you. When the bones and bruises heal, you’re not supposed to be bearing a grudge or be looking for vengeance. This doesn’t mean you can’t defend yourself when the mugging occurs. Neither does this mean that you can’t press charges. This does mean that when the mugger gets out of jail, and wants to offer you a real apology, you gladly accept it. (The validity of courtroom apologies is a different topic altogether). My watered down view, slightly sarcastic view of the teachings of Christianity go something like this: #1: The Old Testament teaches you to treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. All else is commentary. #2: The New Testament teaches that when someone forgets rule #1, forgive them anyway. And that’s fundamentally how I try to live my life. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/27 "2004-02-28T23:43:08Z")
> [@Jackknifed Juggernaut](#): > > It seems that some people are up in arms over the way the Jews are portrayed. Apparently they report Jesus to the Romans who then crucify him. That’s what I’ve never understood. Why do bigots say the _Jews_ killed Jesus. They turned him in, but the Romans did the actual killing. You don’t hear too many people foaming at the mouth about how " The Romans Killed Jesus!" On the other hand, I’m sure many Lawyers are accused of killing the people they get death row convictions on too, so maybe it’s not just this case that’s irrational…Still, they’d have a better case with " Jews got Jesus killed," I think. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/28 "2004-02-29T00:40:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My understanding from some other (GD) threads about this movie is that that’s wrong- if the priests had wanted to kill him for blasphemy, they could have gone ahead and done so. The Romans wouldn’t have cared about that, they would however have been concerned if he was stirring up the rabble too much. > > Anybody? Wrong. Dead wrong. The ultimate authority of the State is derived from the authority to impose death on either revolutionaries, or upon criminals, in order to preserve the peace. Roman authorities _never_ delegated the authority to kill. _Never_ Unthinkable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/29 "2004-02-29T02:26:19Z")
Well… on [the first page of the thread “Anti-Semitism and Mel Gibson’s New Movie” thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=237442&page=1&pp=50) **Loopydude** says > [@](#): > > Given his general contempt towards his subjects, its difficult to see how Pilate would have needed much convincing to execute a Jewish rabble-rouser like Jesus, and the whole thing about Barabbas strikes many historians as throughly inauthentic. […] Given the above, the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ execution rather strain credibility. More likely, some historians argue, the evangelists felt the need to shift blame from Roman authorities for the very pragmatic reason that Christians in the first century were regarded as vermin, and any hint of sedition would be met with extermination. the Jewish authorities (and, by extension, those Jews who were not followers of Jesus), who certainly had their role to play, would have to bear the final burden of responsibility, as the Jews posed a far lesser threat to the survival of Christianity than Caeser did. And then **Diogenes the Cynic** says > [@](#): > > 1.) Crucifixion was purely a Roman method of execution, forbidden for Jews. It would have been counter to Jewish law for the Sanhedrin to turn Jesus over for crucifixion for any reason. > > 2.) The trial before the Sanhedrin, as described by Matthew, is almost certainly fiction. It is riddled with factual and procedural innaccuracies, so much so that the story is improbable to the point of absurdity. > > 3.) Even if the Sanhedrin had wanted to execute Jesus, they could have stoned him. They didn’t need the Romans. > > 4.) Jesus had committed no crime under Jewish law. He had said or done nothing to warrant a death sentence from the Sanhedrin. The conviction for “blasphemy” described in the gospels could not have occurred since the words that are alleged to be blasphemous were NOT blasphemous under Jewish law. > > 5.) The gospels were written decades after the crucifixion by people who were not there and who never met Jesus. The Gospel of John, upon which Gibson bases much of his movie, was written about 100 AD and reflects a sectarian polemic by Christian Jews against rabbinic authority. It’s a political document as much as a religious one. > > 6.) In the wake of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel writers were trying to deemphasize Roman culpability for the crucifixion and the sanhedrin was a handy scapegoat. > > 7.) In all probablity, Jesus was executed by the Romans as a public nuisance. The impetus for his arrest would have been the disturbance at the temple during Passover. The Romans were ruthless about squelching potential riots before they started, especially during passover when the Romans were greatly outnumbered by the throngs of Jews coming in from the sticks to sacrifice at the temple. > > 8.) Pontius Pilate was a real person but not much is known about him. There are no official documents for the trial or execution of Jesus. There is no contemporary documentation that he even existed. > > 9.) Gibsons’ movie may be a faithful rendering of the gospels but the gospels themselves contain some unfair smears and villification of the Sanhedrin. > > 10.) The Romans killed Jesus. No jew had anything to do with that decision although t’s possible that someJewish collaborators may have facillitated his arrest. Point #4 is later corroborated by **zev steinhardt** , who says “Calling yourself a “son of God” is not a capital crime in Judaism. It will get you branded as a heretic, but not killed. Setting yourself up to be worshipped, OTOH, will do it.” ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/30 "2004-02-29T14:24:21Z")
Hmmm… so Jesus was a sick joke that God played on the world? He sent him to the world to get killed so that he could forgive the world? It’s all very confusing. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/31 "2004-03-01T04:32:16Z")
> [@gex gex](#): > > It’s all very confusing. Tell that to Job’s first wife. _::runs for cover::_ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/32 "2004-03-01T04:57:32Z")
> [@vunderbob](#): > > My watered down view, slightly sarcastic view of the teachings of Christianity go something like this: > > #1: The Old Testament teaches you to treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. All else is commentary. That would be Rabbi Hillel. The story goes that a gentile went to him and said that he’d convert to Judaism if Hillel could teach him the entire Torah while he (the gentile) stood on one foot. Hillel said “That which is hateful to yourself, don’t do to your neighbor. The rest is commentary. Now go and study.” So if you consider your view to be ‘watered down’ and ‘slightly sarcastic,’ don’t worry. You’re in pretty good company. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrokk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Cyrokk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrokk)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/33 "2004-03-01T05:22:08Z")
Essentially, you will be watching a movie from the producer’s perspective of the events as told in the Gospels, which for reasons already stated quite well, is probably not reflective of historical accuracy. As to the rather pointless question of who is responsible for the death of Jesus, the most likely answer, as I inferred from the mailbag link, was Jesus himself. The Jewish high preist had the responsibility of safeguarding Jewish religious practices from Roman infiltration, and the way to do this was to make sure that no one would do anything that would attract the Roman government’s attention. Since the rebellious nature of Jesus’ actions had the potential to incite riots, the high priest rightfully had to decide to recommend Jesus for execution in order to calm potentially dangerous waters. The high priest, as well as the Romans, were just doing their jobs. I suspect Jesus probably knew the consequences of his actions, so the real blame IMO goes to no one but himself. As to the origins of anti-Semitism, I would surmise that this actually started to brew around 50 AD, when Paul wrote to the Galatians. This letter angrily condemns Peter for refusal to allow Gentiles to join the new Jewish-Christian faith without following the Jewish customs of circumcision and diet. This letter also reveals a stark contrast from the unanimous agreement described between Peter and Paul in Acts, and it is because of this major inconsistency, coupled with the fact that the author of Acts and Luke is the same, that one cannot objectively determine the factual truth from the Gospels alone. Cy ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/34 "2004-03-01T05:24:44Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I like the part about keeping witnessing out of IMHO, and I’m trying to provide contrast, not witness, but what I’m about to write could be taken as such, so I’ll put it in a spoiler box. This is exactly what has happened in the catholic churches I’ve been in for this specific service. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/35 "2004-03-01T07:51:04Z")
Of course, anti-Semitism is a moot point, anyway, since Jesus himself forgave those who were responsible, whether Roman or Jew: “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” While he is haning on the cross, no less… ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/36 "2004-03-01T09:05:03Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > Of course, anti-Semitism is a moot point, anyway, since Jesus himself forgave those who were responsible, whether Roman or Jew: > > “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” > > While he is haning on the cross, no less… …I thought he was screaming “Oh _God!_ Why hast thou forsaken me!?” Really, I don’t think it’s that _surprising_ that Jesus was executed. I mean, if he’d been a guy in Medieval Italy running around saying that he was the son of god, and criticizing church practices—and gathering a _following_ at that—what’dya suppose would have happened to him then? And as an aside…which Romans, exactly, would have performed the execution? I mean, would all the Roman troops in Jerusalem all been from Italy itself, or might there have been recruits from Gaul or Spain or elsewhere among them? ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/37 "2004-03-01T12:44:14Z")
> [@Johnny Bravo](#): > > That would be Rabbi Hillel. The story goes that a gentile went to him and said that he’d convert to Judaism if Hillel could teach him the entire Torah while he (the gentile) stood on one foot. Hillel said “That which is hateful to yourself, don’t do to your neighbor. The rest is commentary. Now go and study.” > > So if you consider your view to be ‘watered down’ and ‘slightly sarcastic,’ don’t worry. You’re in pretty good company. I knew that a rabbi had said that, and I liked it so much that I took it to heart. I had no clue who to give the credit to… I claim part 2 to be original, however. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/38 "2004-03-01T16:04:11Z")
> [@gouda](#): > > [hijack] > That goes with the territory? > [/hijack] No smiley? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/39 "2004-03-02T05:01:38Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > …I thought he was screaming “Oh _God!_ Why hast thou forsaken me!?” He did both, actually. But He did the forgiving first–it was more important. > [@](#): > > And as an aside…which Romans, exactly, would have performed the execution? I mean, would all the Roman troops in Jerusalem all been from Italy itself, or might there have been recruits from Gaul or Spain or elsewhere among them? By that time, a Roman soldier could have been from many parts of the Empire. Service was a way to get a parcel of land at the end of the term (if one survived). ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491/40 "2004-03-02T05:14:33Z")
Wasn’t everyone that was killed back then killed by Jews or Romans? Who else was around to kill anyone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-and-romans-killed-jesus-why-is-that-bad/231491.md?page=3)