# The Jews of the world don't like you either, Sevastopol **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 5, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138 "2009-12-05T23:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/181 "2009-12-09T13:26:03Z")
I’ve given some more thought to **sleeping** ’s remarks as they apply to comparisons of bigotry aimed at different ethnic groups. It’s a fascinating concept, deserving of more discussion. I’ve constructed a handy reference, the Acceptable Bigotry Scale, to aid Dopers in this regard. Note the simplicity of correlating acceptable bigotry to perceived power and influence (while ignoring historical events), and how handy it is to view everyone as a faceless member of a group. Bigotry aimed at blacks: All would agree, low in the power structure. Racism is unacceptable here. Bigotry directed at Hispanics - slightly less icky, but to be avoided in general. Bigotry against Jews - Much more acceptable, especially verbal hatemongering. Burning down synagogues - probably ungood. The “good” Jews (the ones who agree with us) can be exempted (for now). Bigotry against Muslims - better yet, since there’s lots of them, they run numerous countries and sit on big oil wealth. Bigotry increases according to their perceived power and influence. “Good” Muslims are exempt, if you can think of any. Bigotry against Christians: Have at it. They’re way up on the power structure, they can take it. No exemptions, they take care of their own. Bigotry against Caucasians: Are you kidding me? So, are we all agreed, we can all throw off the chains of nicety and let the nastiness fly? It’s the holiday season, after all. > [@sleeping](#): > > And whether ( **Sevastopol** ’s) statements “encourag[e] dialogue” or aid the Palestinians is irrelevant in this discussion. Really? Discuss. > [@](#): > > Bigotry is obviously not conducive to effecting peace. Could this be progress? > [@](#): > > But you’re conflating combative language with hateful language, and this is not helpful either. Your username is quite apt here. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/182 "2009-12-09T14:22:43Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > - is\* pretty much confessing to being an anti-Semite. delete colon We can’t delete the colon. You’re still posting. That being said, Sev, I’m awaiting an explanation of your accusation that I support ethnic cleansing. I would like it in plain english. Or are you unable to back up your claims? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/183 "2009-12-10T03:11:32Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Funny, Sev chose the wording of shot on sight and their lives are forfeit quite deliberately. Seeing as you feel they are worthy of severe punishment and he wants them all to be shot - what’s more severe than killing every man, woman and child? Salting the land afterwards? Le sigh. Note that I even italicized the word “more.” Guess what that means? I don’t like capital punishment. I am not advocating anyone’s death. In absolute terms, a suitable punishment would be something _less_ than death. > [@](#): > > That’s good to know.:rolleyes: For being against capital punishment (which I happen to be as well), you seem rather loose about endorsing the murder of entire villages. As long as you don’t \*necessarily \* endorse having them shot. Again, not pro-death. > [@](#): > > Well seeing as Sevvy wants to see all the settlers killed and that presumably includes their children, grandchildren, etc - would you find someone saying the lives of every American aside from those with Native blood is forfeit to be loony tunes? Even besides his admission that he tends toward exaggeration, I don’t see how his earlier statement makes this a logical inference. > [@](#): > > Are you sure on this - I thought you weren’t \*necessarily \* against murdering them. So, at this point, you have no real argument. Just dishonest and mean-spirited insinuations. > [@](#): > > Oh I see. If there are unequal power structures, there’s no bigotry involved in calling those with the upper hand sub-human degenerates and part of an evil cult. I guess there’s no racism or bigotry involved in Farrakhan calling the white man the devil or Judaism a gutter religion. (I assume I also don’t have to elaborate to you on the various moral culpability of shooting first generation settlers, their children and their grandchildren). Okay, you really need to work on your reading skills, bud. Black can be racist. Ethnic / racial / religious minorities can be racist. Farrakhan is racist. I never said otherwise. I merely pointed out that two warring parties may both be in the wrong, but one is significantly more powerful than the other and accordingly inflicts more damage, the weaker one may have some claim to sympathy. And that’s distilling social and historical complexities to a crude analogy. > [@](#): > > If calling for shooting entire populations and calling them subhuman degenerates is just combative language, what does it take to rise to the level of hate speech for you? See above. You are twisting **Sev** ’s self-admittedly hyperbolic statements. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/184 "2009-12-10T03:20:22Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > A number of quite humbling posts here. > > Conversely **Malthus** and **Dissonance** are posting in delerium. Pay them no mind. > > **Lavenderblue** has called in her husband to adjudicate? Somewhat upset by this whole business then. Sorry about that. > > I am not sure of where the spouse stands as a reliable adjudicator. As to the names : “ **Douglas Feith, Lieberman, Wolfowitz, Perle, Krauthammer, … Pipes** ”- they have, after all, given their adult lives to fouling the earth. Is no-one to call them out? Their motivations and purpose? > [@Sevastopol](#): > > [Leaving the maudlin behind us](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/Meadow_soprano.jpg) [a vision](http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/img/episode/season01/ep05_meadow.jpg) [or 2.](http://www.melrosejewelers.com/rolex-watch-blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jamie_lynn_sigler_07210702-184x300.jpg) > > [Mind you, when this was my screensaver an attractive colleague asked if it was my family.](http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/06/08/tl_hbo_falco.jpg) **Sev** –let me just say that I am only defending you on this because I’m sick and tired of a particular mindset that has been deployed and is most evident in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Yes, yes, how nice. Jamie Lynn is indeed hot. And our time could be spent better than such verbal masturbations; namely, manual ones. How clever. But this is in large part why you piss people off. Continuously refusing to engage people directly and preferring to toss out backhanded satirical comments loses its luster fairly quickly. There’s a time for jabs, but sometimes you need to offer a straightforward rebuttal. So, you are also kind of a dick. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/185 "2009-12-22T00:15:06Z")
Of course I don’t hate Jews, how could anyone even think… … oh, you said “Sev” not “Zev…” Sorry about that… carry on. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/186 "2009-12-22T13:41:34Z")
I went to school in Yonkers, NY in the 50’s and on Jewish holidays, a good third of the student body stayed home. My point is many of my good friends are and have been Jewish. Let me also say imo that ALL religion is institutionalized superstition. They range in effect from exclusive and repressive to tolerant and expressive and are united across ethnic lines. Judaism is unique among them in that it’s members by definition share the same maternal bloodline. In practice, Judaism has evolved into a religious spectrum from ultra-orthodox to near-unreligion but the underlying ethnic unity often trumps “religious” differences, hence Israel. I don’t find it at all surprising that a group who bills themselves as the Chosen People and discourages miscegenation with God’s unfortunates has historically found itself on the other end of the stick. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/187 "2009-12-22T13:58:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Typical \*\*Sev \*\*behaviour. Dancing around because he’s too chickenshit to say what he actually belives. I think he has been quite clear about what he believes. [ul][li]All Jews in Israel should be killed.[_]Everyone who supports Israel should be killed.[_]All Jews support Israel.[/ul]Pretty straightforward AFAICT.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/188 "2009-12-22T14:13:45Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I went to school in Yonkers, NY in the 50’s and on Jewish holidays, a good third of the student body stayed home. My point is many of my good friends are and have been Jewish. > > Let me also say imo that ALL religion is institutionalized superstition. They range in effect from exclusive and repressive to tolerant and expressive and are united across ethnic lines. > > Judaism is unique among them in that it’s members by definition share the same maternal bloodline. In practice, Judaism has evolved into a religious spectrum from ultra-orthodox to near-unreligion but the underlying ethnic unity often trumps “religious” differences, hence Israel. > > I don’t find it at all surprising that a group who bills themselves as the Chosen People and discourages miscegenation with God’s unfortunates has historically found itself on the other end of the stick. > > Just saying. "Some of my best friends are … " Classic. 😃 P.S. “The Chosen People” doesn’t mean what you think it does. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/189 "2009-12-22T14:49:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > "Some of my best friends are … " > > Classic. 😃 Almost put a smiley on it myself. > [@](#): > > P.S. “The Chosen People” doesn’t mean what you think it does. Just sayin’. Please enlighten. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/190 "2009-12-22T14:50:16Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I don’t find it at all surprising that a group who bills themselves as the Chosen People and discourages miscegenation with God’s unfortunates has historically found itself on the other end of the stick. > > Just saying. Oh go fuck yourself. Or at least get some education. A) half the Jews in America (myself included) are married to non-Jews and b) Chosen People means chosen to receive the torah. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/191 "2009-12-22T15:18:12Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Please enlighten. “Chosen” means chosen for extra religious duties. It does not mean that Jews are especially favoured. In point of fact, Judaism is one of the few religions I know of where righteous non-Jews are considered, religiously, exactly equal to righteous Jews (only they don’t have to do all the same mumbo-jumbo that Jews do). The term for such non-Jewish folk is “Noahide”. Look it up. > **[Seven Laws of Noah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah)** > > In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח, Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), otherwise referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachian Laws (from the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of universal moral laws which, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a covenant with Noah and with the "sons of Noah"—that is, all of humanity. > The Seven Laws of Noah include prohibitions against worshipping idols, cursing God, murder, adultery and sexual immorality, theft, eating fl... Those like yourself who repeat Jew-hating canards never understand this, and assume (quite wrongly) that “Chosen People” is to Jews as “Aryan” is to Nazis. Totally wrongly! Religiously, there is no particular reason to _want_ to be Jewish, because you get extra duties but no extra reward above and beyond being a Noahide. This is quite unlike (say) Christianity, in many sects of which you only get to heaven if you are Christian. I suppose this is just pissing in the wind, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/192 "2009-12-22T15:21:01Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Judaism is unique among them in that it’s members by definition share the same maternal bloodline. In practice, Judaism has evolved into a religious spectrum from ultra-orthodox to near-unreligion but the underlying ethnic unity often trumps “religious” differences, hence Israel. No they don’t. > [@adhay](#): > > I don’t find it at all surprising that a group who bills themselves as the Chosen People and discourages miscegenation with God’s unfortunates has historically found itself on the other end of the stick. You’re an idiot. > [@adhay](#): > > Just saying. I’m just sayin’, you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about. Chosen people doesn’t mean what you think it means, and the Jewish peoples don’t all share a maternal bloodline. If both parent’s aren’t Jewish, than you’re Jewish _without converting_ if your mother is Jewish. If your father is Jewish and your mother Christian, than you’ve got to (according to **some sects!** ) convert. Others go by either parent, or even a single grandparent. Others still, don’t require a ‘conversion process’ so much as a ‘conversion of the soul.’ ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/193 "2009-12-22T15:29:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Chosen” means chosen for extra religious duties. It does not mean that Jews are especially favoured. In point of fact, Judaism is one of the few religions I know of where righteous non-Jews are considered, religiously, exactly equal to righteous Jews (only they don’t have to do all the same mumbo-jumbo that Jews do). > > The term for such non-Jewish folk is “Noahide”. Look it up. > > [Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah) As someone who isn’t a Jew, I wrongly had the assumption that chosen people was some sort of reference to being “Favored by God”. Thanks for posting that and disabusing me of that idea. Ignorance fought and all that. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/194 "2009-12-22T15:50:27Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oh go fuck yourself. Or at least get some education. Now, now. > [@](#): > > A) half the Jews in America (myself included) are married to non-Jews and b) Chosen People means chosen to receive the torah. A) Welcome to post-war America. This was not always so, you know. B) And what the Torah has to say on the subject of “chosenness” has long been debated within Judaism. Today we agree that it means separate but equal. Historically, however, I think favored by God is the more general interpretation, outside of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/195 "2009-12-22T16:08:11Z")
Historically, looking for definitions of Judaism from non-Jews has led to… the odd problem here and there? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/196 "2009-12-22T16:18:16Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Historically, looking for definitions of Judaism from non-Jews has led to… the odd problem here and there? Thank you. Really all I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/197 "2009-12-22T16:18:27Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > B) And what the Torah has to say on the subject of “chosenness” has long been debated within Judaism. Today we agree that it means separate but equal. Historically, however, I think favored by God is the more general interpretation, outside of Judaism. It doesn’t mean “seperate but equal” and there was never any debate within Judaism that “chosen” meant anything like what you so evidently assume. The fact that _non-Jews_ have “chosen” to use the term as yet another anti-Jewish canard is neither here nor there, other than to raise the question as to why _you_ are using it as such _now_. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/198 "2009-12-22T16:24:34Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > As someone who isn’t a Jew, I wrongly had the assumption that chosen people was some sort of reference to being “Favored by God”. Thanks for posting that and disabusing me of that idea. Ignorance fought and all that. No prob. Religiously, “Chosen” is more of a burden than a benefit. Of course Jews view bearing this burden as a great honour. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/199 "2009-12-22T16:32:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > > The fact that _non-Jews_ have “chosen” to use the term as yet another anti-Jewish canard is neither here nor there, other than to raise the question as to why _you_ are using it as such _now_. Pure ignorance on my part. My most SO was the daughter of a rabbi and the subject never came up. I consider myself educated but am really uninterested in religion. I hereby choose not to use chosen in this context ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/200 "2009-12-22T16:39:58Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Pure ignorance on my part. My most SO was the daughter of a rabbi and the subject never came up. I consider myself educated but am really uninterested in religion. > > I hereby choose not to use chosen in this context ever again. Heh no prob. 🙂 It is just another illustration of the strength and depth of anti-Jewish narratives in our society. A person who doesn’t actually study this stuff would, it would seem, almost invariably and without being aware of it absorb the narratives and assume they were true. As for being interested in religion - I myself view this as more a matter of _anthropology_ than piety. It is a good idea for everyone to be interested in something that motivates so very many folks for good or bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138.md?page=11)