# The Jews of the world don't like you either, Sevastopol **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 5, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138 "2009-12-05T23:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/121 "2009-12-07T17:17:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If a majority of the population of Northern Ireland no longer wished to remain part of the United Kingdom, withdrawal would happen. Is that also true of the Occupied Territories? > > The people of Northern Ireland are full citizens of the United Kingdom. Are the people of the Occupied Territories full citizens of Israel? > > Generally I think you are right in your conversation with **ivan astikov** here, but this is just bs. > > More generally, is there a list of which insults based on national origin are permitted here and which aren’t? Northern Ireland, in my example, is equivalent to the “settlement blocks”, the areas near the Green Line where the vast majority of Jews in the Territories live. If Israel withdrew from most of the territories while annexing these areas - which is what will eventually happen, IMHO - then their inhabitants, being Jewish, will in fact be Israeli citizens and will indeed wish to remain part of Israel. That’s the parallel here. The Brits once illegally occupied all of Ireland, and after reaching a compromise with the IRA retreated from most of the land, while keeping the largest “settlements” in their possession. It’s not exactly the same as Israel/Palestine, but it’s pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/122 "2009-12-07T17:18:16Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I don’t know **Sevastopol** , or his postings (other than what is linked to), but what really irritates me is the notion that anyone who disagrees with Israel or giving money to Israel is anti-semitic. > > It’s a nice label, and it immediately changes the debate, but it doesn’t make the person anti-semitic. > > I also find it interesting that people who are offended by the word “cult” to describe judaism, have no problem seeing christianity being bashed on these boards on a daily basis as a “cult”. Great. You don’t see someone smearing an ethnic group as an “evil cult” as problematic … but you _do_ see smearing the person who says that as a bigot as problematic? What, exactly, would someone have to do, before you’d be willing to label 'em as a bigot? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/123 "2009-12-07T17:23:26Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I am certainly not suggesting that you or others are “getting marching orders” from anyone. I am stating clearly that when someone makes arguments like those referred to here that some supporters of Israel come along and by innuendo libel people as anti-Semitic. Opposing arguments and instances are referred to as “discredited” or “demolished” elsewhere. > > Suffice to say that Sevastapol has in the topic line of the OP been accused of not liking Jews. That is an accusation of anti-Semitism by innuendo. Nobody here has supported that argument with direct quotes that stand up. For all I know, they might exist, but they haven’t been put forward. What I see instead is the usual smears against someone who is anti-Zionist: that it is the same has hating Jews. It isn’t. The complained of quote from Sevastapol is that Zionism is strongly liked to Judaism and it hurts Judaism. I’m sorry to burst any bubbles here, but when someone within a group or a group does something that reflects badly on the group, be they Shriners, Muslims, Democrats or Jews. Madoff was really bad for Jews. Gaza reflects badly on Israel and overzealous defense of what goes on in Gaza and the occupied territories reflects badly. > > For the past several years, my support of Israel has dwindled a great deal because of the long term treatment of the Palestinians. I would like to see the situation salvaged, but will it be? You must be shitting me. Are you seriously claiming that someone who says stuff like in the OP isn’t a Jew-hater? > [@](#): > > … Judaism is past its best and the alternatives are attractive. I don’t give a hoot what this person’s opinion on the Israeli matter is. What “alternatives” is he snidely hinting at, do _you_ think? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/124 "2009-12-07T17:41:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Northern Ireland, in my example, is equivalent to the “settlement blocks”, the areas near the Green Line where the vast majority of Jews in the Territories live. If Israel withdrew from most of the territories while annexing these areas - which is what will eventually happen, IMHO - then their inhabitants, being Jewish, will in fact be Israeli citizens and will indeed wish to remain part of Israel. > > That’s the parallel here. The Brits once illegally occupied all of Ireland, and after reaching a compromise with the IRA retreated from most of the land, while keeping the largest “settlements” in their possession. It’s not exactly the same as Israel/Palestine, but it’s pretty close. Oh OK. So the non “settlement block” parts of the Occupied Territories have representation in the Knesset then at the moment? The residents there are citizens of Israel? Are there Israeli army units, for example, made up from the non “settlement block” parts of the Occupied Territories? What makes the situation different is that there was an attempt to bring the geographical entity of Ireland into a united political structure. That attempt was unsuccessful, because the people who lived in a large part of that geographical entity did not want it. The attempt should have been stopped earlier, but it was stopped. Israel has never to my knowledge made any attempt to bring the Occupied Territories into Israel proper, though you I am sure know more of the history than I do and I stand to be corrected if wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/125 "2009-12-07T17:49:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Oh OK. So the non “settlement block” parts of the Occupied Territories have representation in the Knesset then at the moment? The residents there are citizens of Israel? Are there Israeli army units, for example, made up from the non “settlement block” parts of the Occupied Territories? > > What makes the situation different is that there was an attempt to bring the geographical entity of Ireland into a united political structure. That attempt was unsuccessful, because the people who lived in a large part of that geographical entity did not want it. The attempt should have been stopped earlier, but it was stopped. Israel has never to my knowledge made any attempt to bring the Occupied Territories into Israel proper, though you I am sure know more of the history than I do and I stand to be corrected if wrong. I said it wasn’t a perfect analogy. Israel never offered voting rights to the Palestinians in the West Bank because unlike the British, it never annexed the vast majority of the Territories - something the world would never have allowed it to do even if Israel had ever formulated a coherent policy as to whether it intended to hold on to the Territories permanently . In the one small portion of the Territories it did annex, East Jerusalem, the inhabitants were indeed granted (or at least offered - I believe many refused) full voting rights. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/126 "2009-12-07T17:55:14Z")
Which is what makes it a terrible analogy. I know you wanted to bust on the British because you were arguing with **ivan**. It just was a singularly bad way to do it and undermined your argument, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/127 "2009-12-07T18:04:24Z")
I think it’s a pretty good analogy, actually. The Irish got most - but not all - of what they considered their ancestral homeland because they were willing to compromise; and the world accepted this solution, not because it was “just”, but because it was practical. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/128 "2009-12-07T18:15:30Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Hm, all the Druze I’ve met consider themselves to be just Druze, not Arabs. Anybody who speaks Arabic as their first language = Arab, as far as I’m concerned. It’s not like the Egyptian _fellahin_ are descended from Arabian Bedouin, either. The Druze can just suck it on this one ;). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/129 "2009-12-07T18:38:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What “alternatives” is he snidely hinting at, do _you_ think? Why don’t you ask him? His opinions, including his sarcastic “suppose ifs” are all based on conduct/policy of Israelis. At least that is what I’m seeing. Remove comments centralized on Israel, and he seems to have no problem with Jews. Israel is not immune from criticism for its policies, nor is accusing its critics of anti-Semitism a legitimate defense: it’s an ad hominem attack. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/130 "2009-12-07T18:56:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Israel is not immune from criticism for its policies, Where has anyone said it was? > [@](#): > > nor is accusing its critics of anti-Semitism a legitimate defense: it’s an ad hominem attack. Actually, it’s perfectly valid if the person in question is in fact an anti-Semite. That some people throw accusations of anti-Semitism around willy-nilly doesn’t mean that there are no anti-Semites. Al Sharpton likes to throw accusations of racism around even when it isn’t a factor. That doesn’t mean actual racism doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/131 "2009-12-07T18:58:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Why don’t you ask him? > > His opinions, including his sarcastic “suppose ifs” are all based on conduct/policy of Israelis. At least that is what I’m seeing. Remove comments centralized on Israel, and he seems to have no problem with Jews. > > Israel is not immune from criticism for its policies, nor is accusing its critics of anti-Semitism a legitimate defense: it’s an ad hominem attack. Again, I care nothing for his opinions of Israel. Calling a bigot a bigot isn’t an ad hom, it is simply _accurate_. The fact that someone happens to be anti-Israel is not a free pass on bigotry, or at least, it should not be. ‘I hate Jews [because of Israel]’ is no more acceptable than ‘I hate Jews [because they killed Christ]’ or ‘I hate Jews [because they are all hook-nosed money-lenders]’. Your opinion is the equivalent of ‘Remove comments centralized on money-lending , and he seems to have no problem with Jews.’ The fact is that even if one accepts that he’s 100% _correct_ in his opinions on Israel, he’s still a bigot - for the simple reason that he equates the two (Jews and Israel) quite improperly, just as in previous eras bigots like him used to equate Jews with other things they disliked, such as money-lending. Myself, I have nothing against money-lending as a profession; some of my best friends are bankers. 😃 I’d still have problems with someone who does, and claims _all Jews_ are somehow ‘tarred’ with the practice, and that as a result Judaism should be replaced with “alternatives”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/132 "2009-12-07T19:41:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Anybody who speaks Arabic as their first language = Arab, as far as I’m concerned. It’s not like the Egyptian _fellahin_ are descended from Arabian Bedouin, either. The Druze can just suck it on this one ;). I think that most of North Africa and a couple of spots in Asia Minor would argue that point with you 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/133 "2009-12-07T20:31:59Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Very, very seldom will you see anyone (and never on this board in my memory) come right out and _admit_ that they despise a particular ethnic group. They reveal themselves in more indirect ways. Lousy fuckin’ anabaptists. I oughta… …oops. ---
**Author:** ![Scruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Scruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/134 "2009-12-07T21:03:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, I care nothing for his opinions of Israel. > > Calling a bigot a bigot isn’t an ad hom, it is simply _accurate_. > > The fact that someone happens to be anti-Israel is not a free pass on bigotry, or at least, it should not be. > > ‘I hate Jews [because of Israel]’ is no more acceptable than ‘I hate Jews [because they killed Christ]’ or ‘I hate Jews [because they are all hook-nosed money-lenders]’. > > Your opinion is the equivalent of ‘Remove comments centralized on money-lending , and he seems to have no problem with Jews.’ The fact is that even if one accepts that he’s 100% _correct_ in his opinions on Israel, he’s still a bigot - for the simple reason that he equates the two (Jews and Israel) quite improperly, just as in previous eras bigots like him used to equate Jews with other things they disliked, such as money-lending. > > Myself, I have nothing against money-lending as a profession; some of my best friends are bankers. 😃 I’d still have problems with someone who does, and claims _all Jews_ are somehow ‘tarred’ with the practice, and that as a result Judaism should be replaced with “alternatives”. :rolleyes: So your assertion is that if someone has a problem with the decisions of the government of Israel, then that same person is a bigot who hates Jews? Or is this the super-intuitive “you may not know you’re a bigot, but I can tell” secret power that you have? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/135 "2009-12-07T21:12:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What “alternatives” is he snidely hinting at, do _you_ think? Atheism? Buddhism? Flying-spaghetti-monster-ism? I don’t see the snideness there. He feels that Judaism is, at its most basic, no better or worse than any other religion, but that its appeal and applicability to modern life is diminished by what he perceives as its insistence on unquestioning support for the actions of the government of the political state of Israel. I could say similar things about Christianity (pick a denomination). Does that mean that I hate Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/136 "2009-12-07T21:28:17Z")
> [@Scruff](#): > > So your assertion is that if someone has a problem with the decisions of the government of Israel, then that same person is a bigot who hates Jews? > > Or is this the super-intuitive “you may not know you’re a bigot, but I can tell” secret power that you have? Clearly not. As I’ve stated twice now, I could not care less what this fellow (or indeed anyone) thinks about Israel. My assertion is that someone who outright states that _all_ Jews are tarred by the fact that all Jews unquestioningly support Israel, and thus that Judaism itself should be replaced by its “alternatives”, is a bigot. See the difference there? You stated position is the equivalent of someone saying "so, anyone who declares their hatred for moneylenders is a bigot, then?’ if I had a problem with ‘all Jews are tainted by their moneylending habits, and Judaism should be replaced’. No “intuition” on my part is needed here. He’s simply a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Scruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Scruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/137 "2009-12-07T21:37:38Z")
OK, I think. Your first example (all Jews are tarred by their unquestioning support of Israel) I get. Your second money-lending one confuses the shit out of me. On the continuum of “government of Israel, Israeli citizens, Israeli Jewish Citizens, Jews…”, I am happy to express my displeasure with the first while having no problem in general terms with any of the others. Sorry if I bugged you; I have seen many arguments which have blurred the distinction between specific actions of Israelis (government, prominent citizens, local-grown idiots) and “hatred” for followers of Judaism. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/138 "2009-12-07T21:41:31Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Atheism? Buddhism? Flying-spaghetti-monster-ism? > > I don’t see the snideness there. He feels that Judaism is, at its most basic, no better or worse than any other religion, but that its appeal and applicability to modern life is diminished by what he perceives as its insistence on unquestioning support for the actions of the government of the political state of Israel. > > I could say similar things about Christianity (pick a denomination). Does that mean that I hate Christians? \ Judaism and Christianity are not synonimous - Judaism is an ethinicty as well as a religion; hence, thyere are many Jewish atheists (not so many “Christian atheists”). Hence, it is no answer for a Jew-hating bigot that their hatred is simply a species of atheism. It is clear the target of the OP is using “Judaism” in this sense, as an ethnic group identifier, and not as some critique of religion. Consider: > [@](#): > > The problem is the disposition American Jews, in particular, have to back Israel. With the public figures like Douglas Feith, Lieberman, Wolfowitz, Perle, Krauthammer, Abrahams, Pipes and Lewis Libby etc , who would be Jewish? The soul of their evil is affiliation with Israel and this is now polluting American Judaism. The term “American Judaism” is an identifier of **ethnicity** , not religion. If an American Jewish Atheist supports Israel, are you of the opinion s/he’s not included here? The appropriate comparator is ethnicity, not religion. The equivalent is ‘who would be Armenian? The soul of their evil is … X’. Are you seriously contending that the above is not indicative of anti-Armenian bigotry? Assiging a “soul of evil” to an entire ethnicity? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/139 "2009-12-07T21:49:36Z")
> [@Scruff](#): > > OK, I think. Your first example (all Jews are tarred by their unquestioning support of Israel) I get. Your second money-lending one confuses the shit out of me. > > On the continuum of “government of Israel, Israeli citizens, Israeli Jewish Citizens, Jews…”, I am happy to express my displeasure with the first while having no problem in general terms with any of the others. > > Sorry if I bugged you; I have seen many arguments which have blurred the distinction between specific actions of Israelis (government, prominent citizens, local-grown idiots) and “hatred” for followers of Judaism. > > Thanks The reason I threw it in is to demonstrate by example that the issue isn’t one having to do with “Israel”. You could replace “Israel” with any one of a number of other traditional reasons to hate Jews, without thereby changing the meaning one bit. If I was to assign a “soul of evil” to an entire ethnicity based on some cause, it really doesn’t matter what that cause is. Arguing about whether that cause is, or is not, actually evil misses the point - that you can’t tar an entire people with it regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138/140 "2009-12-07T21:55:53Z")
Let me put it another way - the only “alternative” a Jew has to being a Jew is being a dead Jew. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jews-of-the-world-dont-like-you-either-sevastopol/520138.md?page=8)