# The jobs bill just died in the Senate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366 "2011-10-12T00:08:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/61 "2011-10-12T15:33:11Z")
Backing up here - Before you get on your high horse, Left-Dopers, know that the Senate Republicans were all for an immediate vote on the jobs bill. As in, go direct to voting for it. Harry Reid changed Senate rules in order to avoid that, because he believed his own party would reject it and didn’t want to udnercut his own party’s President. (I’m not certain, but I think even he was dubious about the bill.) > [@Mosier](#): > > So your solution for the current unemployment rate is…what? Are you also on the “just cut taxes more” wagon? Solution? Well, at this point, any solution is going to be painful. I’m not really interested in cutting taxes now, as I doubt we can afford it. I favor a three-pronged program: **(1)** Massive review and cancellation of federal regulations which no longer serve anyone much. Way, way too many regs are outdated and often served dubious purposes to begin with. **(2)** With border security assured, open up immigration for any western national, political refugee, or more or less any educated person. (A great many commenters get confused: it is illegal immigration, not legal, which angers so many Conservatives. If the people are legal, choose to come here, and . Open a temporary worker program almost anyone who don’t want to permanently stay but would like work. **(3)** Hi Opal! **(4)** Break the TSA, IRS, and **(5)** Tax Reform. Simplify the tax code, make it a moderately graduated income tax (basically, split the difference between the progressive and flat tax). Almost everyone should pay some tax. We’ve been undercutting the tax base for years, and that’s a pretty good way to hurt yourself. **(6)** Legalize marijuana, with essentially the same restrictions as alchohol. **(7)** Make international financial transfers and transactions free, or nearly so. Politicians love to complain about corporations “tax dodging” or whatever. But nobody has a duty to pay more money because you write a bad law. If you stop putting hefty taxes on funds transfers, they’ll keep money here while waiting to use it, which will result in more investment funds being available and making it more likely they’ll be put to use here. Plus, these are massive headaches - companies keep giant staffs just to figure these out. **(8)** Begin using goals-based financial review. Right now, the various Federal bureacracies tend to go with a “last year’s budget plus X” approach. They don’t talk in terms of “We can accomplish X at budget level Y, X+1 at budget level Y+2, or even X+5 at budget level Y+6.” Basically, zero-based budgeting, _and keep people to it_. Failing to meet your goals by a significant amount should be a minor scandal and lead to trouble if not switfly corrected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/62 "2011-10-12T15:45:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Backing up here - Before you get on your high horse, Left-Dopers, know that the Senate Republicans were all for an immediate vote on the jobs bill. As in, go direct to voting for it. Harry Reid changed Senate rules in order to avoid that, because he believed his own party would reject it and didn’t want to udnercut his own party’s President. (I’m not certain, but I think even he was dubious about the bill.) Wouldn’t it be changing the rules to put it up for debate without a vote for cloture? And if the GOP wanted an up or down vote, the way to do that would be to vote for cloture. Your analysis doesn’t make sense unless I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/63 "2011-10-12T16:08:46Z")
I think the Republicans made a huge mistake in the polical arena. What they should have done was publicly state that they oppose the bill but so not to be obstructionist, they will vote for it provided the President and Congressional Democrats take full responsibility for the outcomes _even if unemployment does not decrease in the next year_. Now next November as unemployment is at 9.1% or higher, the Republicans run on the platform that they gave the Democrats a chance and their policies did no good whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/64 "2011-10-12T16:08:50Z")
I hear a lot of talk about tax reform, and nothing about creating jobs from you Republicans. Please explain to me how fairer, lesser, or fewer taxes are going to create jobs. Will lowering taxes also increase the average wage in China? Where is the incentive to create jobs here? Tax reform is not going to change anything. What about consumerism? Businesses are closing because they have no customers, not because taxes are too high. What is the Republican plan to bolster consumer spending and job creation? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/65 "2011-10-12T16:11:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wouldn’t it be changing the rules to put it up for debate without a vote for cloture? > > And if the GOP wanted an up or down vote, the way to do that would be to vote for cloture. > > Your analysis doesn’t make sense unless I’m missing something. You are. The vote for cloture only applies if there is a filibuster. With the procedural filibuster, the minority leader informs the majority leader that they will filibuster and the cloture vote is taken at that time. BUT if the minority leader does not indicate that it will be filibustered, the normal procedures of debate, amendments, etc. go into effect but not cloture vote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/66 "2011-10-12T16:14:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > How are the Dems not wholly owned? Well, it’s obvious: There’s still **some** room in the Dems for people – activists and officeholders – who sensibly blame the corporations/overclass as such. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/67 "2011-10-12T16:20:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it’s obvious: There’s still **some** room in the Dems for people – activists and officeholders – who sensibly blame the corporations/overclass as such. How many Pubs, after all, can you find in the [Congressional Progressive Caucus?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/68 "2011-10-12T16:28:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You are. The vote for cloture only applies if there is a filibuster. With the procedural filibuster, the minority leader informs the majority leader that they will filibuster and the cloture vote is taken at that time. BUT if the minority leader does not indicate that it will be filibustered, the normal procedures of debate, amendments, etc. go into effect but not cloture vote. But they can change their minds, yes? They can pretend that they are going to go along, and then decide to filibuster later. A caucus tease. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/69 "2011-10-12T17:15:16Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > **(1)** Massive review and cancellation of federal regulations which no longer serve anyone much. Way, way too many regs are outdated and often served dubious purposes to begin with. > **(2)** With border security assured, open up immigration for any western national, political refugee, or more or less any educated person. (A great many commenters get confused: it is illegal immigration, not legal, which angers so many Conservatives. If the people are legal, choose to come here, and . Open a temporary worker program almost anyone who don’t want to permanently stay but would like work. > **(3)** Hi Opal! > **(4)** Break the TSA, IRS, and > **(5)** Tax Reform. Simplify the tax code, make it a moderately graduated income tax (basically, split the difference between the progressive and flat tax). Almost everyone should pay some tax. We’ve been undercutting the tax base for years, and that’s a pretty good way to hurt yourself. > **(6)** Legalize marijuana, with essentially the same restrictions as alchohol. > **(7)** Make international financial transfers and transactions free, or nearly so. Politicians love to complain about corporations “tax dodging” or whatever. But nobody has a duty to pay more money because you write a bad law. If you stop putting hefty taxes on funds transfers, they’ll keep money here while waiting to use it, which will result in more investment funds being available and making it more likely they’ll be put to use here. Plus, these are massive headaches - companies keep giant staffs just to figure these out. > **(8)** Begin using goals-based financial review. Right now, the various Federal bureacracies tend to go with a “last year’s budget plus X” approach. They don’t talk in terms of “We can accomplish X at budget level Y, X+1 at budget level Y+2, or even X+5 at budget level Y+6.” Basically, zero-based budgeting, _and keep people to it_. Failing to meet your goals by a significant amount should be a minor scandal and lead to trouble if not switfly corrected. (1) is already in progress and was spearheaded by Obama. [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/obama-announces-review-federal-regulations/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/obama-announces-review-federal-regulations/) (2) is already a current policy. (4) is not going to happen. Some organization will have to be responsible for collecting taxes and enforcing airline security. (5) would essentially raise taxes on the poor and middle class, decreasing the amount of disposible income for these groups, lowering demand for goods. I don’t see how this could ever help the economy. (6) No disagreement, but I fail to see how this would have any meaningful effect on the economy. (7) I’m also not sure how this raises the employment level. (8) Gov’t agencies are already doing this as an attempt to lower the federal budget deficit. While it needs to be done, it can have nothing but a negative effect on the economy. All cuts to gov’t spending comes out of someone’s paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/70 "2011-10-12T17:30:26Z")
What most people seem to forget is that the stimulus was 1/3rd tax cuts. In fact it was one of the largest tax cuts in history, if I recall. And a question: Isn’t the jobs bill mostly meant for infrastructure investment? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/71 "2011-10-12T17:38:52Z")
> [@Da\_Mikster](#): > > I’m willing to bet the “majority of the population” - you know, the ones too busy to answer stupid polls that are quite often written with questions to slant towards the answer the poll taker wants to hear anyway - are more worried about meeting THEIR OWN budget. Whether they’ll be able to CONTINUE to do so. Keeping essential services intact so they can continue living their lives. Than about the federal debt. Sure, I’ll grant that my phrasing was misleading. Your average person just wants immediate solutions, with long term consequences being damned. If you poll the average person, that will be your answer. But let’s take the stimulus package into consideration again. By all rights a Keynesian stimulus should work. Your average person, given a bunch of money and told that it will solve the problems of the economy by people he trusts, will go out and spend the money, and the economy will be fixed. In this case, the stimulus was both a short and long term plan to fix the economy. If you poll the average person, he’ll say that he asked for a chance to work, and quickly after the stimulus, companies started hiring again; he got what he wanted. You run that same simulation in a world with FOX news saying the same thing as I did in [post 39](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14349158&postcount=39), and suddenly your stimulus fails. The average person is hearing from a lot of smart people that a stimulus will work, will bring him jobs, will fix the economy, etc. But he’s also hearing from an equal number of smart people that a stimulus won’t work, will drive the economy into deeper debt, and make everything worse. Minus any alternative proposal, he’ll poll as being positive for the stimulus – because he hopes it will work. But then he’ll take the money the government gives him and stick in it a bank account, not spending it, because he doesn’t really understand how a stimulus is meant to work, and doesn’t correlate its failure to function on his personal actions. Basically, the average Joe is the pawn of talking heads. If the talking heads don’t have any ideas of their own and are just arguing in circles, all the average Joe can do is collect in parks or in front of banks and demand for “smart people” to figure out the problem and solve it. They don’t know what that answer is and probably wouldn’t recognize it if it bit them in the ass, so polling them about what they think the answer should be isn’t particularly useful. They aren’t policy makers, they aren’t economists. They’re just people. But to satisfy the people, you have to satisfy the employers, the policy makers, and the media that things are good, because that’s where the people get their lead from. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/72 "2011-10-12T17:52:53Z")
You’re assuming that spending the money is optional for Joseph Blow, that he might not buy new school clothes for his kids, a new washing machine, etc. Best guess is that he probably will. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/73 "2011-10-12T18:03:34Z")
@ Sage Rat - Your premise was flawed as well… One simple fact. The deficit didn’t cause the economy to tank. Rampant risk taking (aka “greed”) + lax regulation of the financial sector in the form of repealing Glass-Steagall, and a regulatory agency that was in bed with the people they were meant to watchdog did much, much more. I’d suggest anyone who is saying anything else; 1. should be given a polygraph. 2. Is trying to sell you something - so read the fine print. or 3. Had too much Kool-Aid. 4. Hasn’t stopped to think about it long enough. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/74 "2011-10-12T18:43:02Z")
And this just in… [http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2011/10/12/8288026-nbcwsj-poll-despite-defeat-obamas-jobs-bill-is-popular](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8288026-nbcwsj-poll-despite-defeat-obamas-jobs-bill-is-popular) **NBC/WSJ poll: Despite defeat, Obama’s jobs bill is popular** > [@](#): > > …When asked simply if Congress should pass the legislation or not, 30 percent of respondents answer yes, while 22 percent say no; 44 percent have no opinion. > But when the legislation’s details are included in a follow-up question – that it would cut payroll taxes, fund new road construction, extend unemployment benefits, and that it would be paid for by increasing taxes on the wealthy – 63 percent say they favor the bill and 32 percent oppose it. > > What’s more, 64 percent of respondents agree with the statement that it is a “good idea” to raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations, because they should pay their fair share and can afford to pay more to help fund programs and government operations… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/75 "2011-10-12T18:57:21Z")
> [@Da\_Mikster](#): > > @ Sage Rat - Your premise was flawed as well… One simple fact. The deficit didn’t cause the economy to tank. Rampant risk taking (aka “greed”) + lax regulation of the financial sector in the form of repealing Glass-Steagall, and a regulatory agency that was in bed with the people they were meant to watchdog did much, much more. Sure, 3-5 years ago. But I’m talking about today. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/76 "2011-10-12T19:00:44Z")
Oh, so we have all these new safeguards and regulations in place, prevent such a thing? Missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/77 "2011-10-12T19:05:57Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You want to play this game? Fine. Let’s play this game. If 98% of Democrats support a bill yet 2% of Democrats and 100% of Republicans oppose that same bill, then that means that the only manner of bipartisanship in regards to the bill is in opposition to the bill, in which case it can be argued that the 98% of Democrats who voted for the bill are only interested in themselves and what they want, rather than the good of everyone. > > …Because, you know, that’s exactly what would be stated around here if the roles were reversed and it was 98% of Republicans voting for a measure with 2% of Republicans and 100% of Democrats opposed. I’ve noticed that, as far as this board is concerned, bipartisanship and all that talk only works one way. Play it fairly. In order to get past the Repub filibuster, it needed 60 votes. That has become the new norm, since the Repubs have given themselves over to the blind right. They filibuster everything. Once a head count is taken and a Dem sees there is no way to get it through the Repub bloc, they sometimes will vote against a bill to play up to their constituents. Yes, I want to play that game. But play fair. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/78 "2011-10-12T19:28:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, so we have all these new safeguards and regulations in place, prevent such a thing? Missed that part. If that’s what needs to be added to make the leaders of the nation feel satisfied that the nation is on a firm footing, then add it to the list of things which can be done, should be done, and which can reasonably be put into policy. I don’t feel that the lack of those is the cause of the double-dip recession that’s lead to the current protests and whatnot, but I’m not opposed to mending finance regulations where there’s agreement that the underlying issues are understood, and the solutions directly address those issues. I don’t think that Republicans would be able to obstruct such proposals either. But I wouldn’t think that the government was caving to special interests if the proposals were less than bloggers want. Bloggers don’t have the same information as policy makers do. At the moment, I have little reason to believe that the measures which were passed several years ago weren’t sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/79 "2011-10-12T20:21:09Z")
This makes me sick. State and local governments are starved for cash right now. The bill would have provided $85 billion in aid to state and local governments. Right now municipal governments are just having so much fun right now: declaring bankruptcy in Harrisburg, removing street lights in Michigan to avoid paying electric costs, converting paved roads to gravel, delaying critical maintenance on infrastructure, and even **repealing domestic violence laws to save on court costs**. Cites: [blog post summary](http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/10/12/lets-go-out-to-the-lake-earl/), [news article](http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/11/3202008/topeka-repeals-law-against-misdemeanor.html). This bill included funding for infrastructure maintenance and repair, among other things. I’ve said before that it’s a win-win, and I’m very frustrated that this bill did not go through. For more on infrastructure spending refer to my [previous topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=618573). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366/80 "2011-10-12T20:28:12Z")
Were there enough Democratic votes to pass this bill? I thought there wasn’t, but I could be mistaken. If not, then this was just a bit of political theater before they went about slicing it up into more palatable pieces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-jobs-bill-just-died-in-the-senate/599366.md?page=5)